The Big Bad EU Gravy Train....

[Graham]

I need your opinions (and facts where possible).

In my heart of hearts for some years now, I have largely despised the EU, and most of what it stands for, but I fear I may be short on facts.

I know that it costs us a headline figure of around £44 million per day run, and that they will happily vote themselves free hookers if they had a whim to. What I can't see is the counter argument...

What does the EU bring to us, other than open borders?

Back in the day, it was a TRADING body created to make European trade easier, and give everybody a level playing field (unless you're a french farmer :veryangry: )...

But now all it does is create mounds of legislation. If I am a local council, and I want to tender certain jobs out to the private sector, I have to publish the tender in the Hague (or wherever they are sitting, depending on which day of the week it is) before I can offer it to a local company...

So, I'm interested in your opinions and facts regarding this giant Gravy Train.

Let the games begin :laugh:

Graham.

 

[Keith]

I think you'll find that most people who voted in the referendum voted for a "Trading Bloc" not a "Federal Europe". The Treaty of Rome wasn't exactly spelled out to us back then. By the time of Maastricht it was all too late.

However, if we had been at the heart of it from the beginning then we could have helped shape it in a fairer way, but this was never going to happen after Ernest Bevin famiusly said "The Durham Miners would never stand for it" because, in essence, it was all about Coal & Steel then.

Europe is the ultimate Nanny State. If you need "grants" for projects just apply. If you wander why Ireland is in a bit of a mess, way back there were hoardings everywhere promising "Another EU funded project" but they rarely got built. EU money was squirreled away by the bandits in this and many other member states. We played by the rules and got the shit end of the stick.

I remember exactly why I voted for the "Common Market" (how enticing it sounds now). It was because every Left Wing Loony voted against it and thus it was good for us! Ironically it was a labour Loony Left Govt that wanted to pull out in '83. Thatcher was the only politician who had the balls to tackle the monster and get our rebate because we were (and are) contributing far too much.

It is a broken sick monster and can never work now because of the beaurocracy they have created. It just feeds on itself and grows exponentially each year. If you want to see how it works for those on the gravy train, take a trip to St Pancras in the early morning and see the Eurostar packed with "officials" monopolising the whole of First Class.

Meanwhile, the French illegally subsidise their industries and complain about our Mad Cow disease whilst their farmers merely bury their sick animals in the ground and say nowt. Quite frankly, they cheat at every turn.

We have had 3 very good butchers close here recently near me because they cannot any longer afford to comply with EU H&S Regs, with seperate chopping tables, no unpacked meat on display etc etc. Go to France and see game hanging from racks and unwrapped meat everywhere and a single cutting table just like it used to be here. Same EU, same Regs only we play by the rules.

As long as this situation continues, it can't work, and what do you think all the other member states are doing? Want to take a bet on Greece, Spain, Lithuania playing by the rules?

We need a Thatcher to thump the tub and stick it to them and remember, we voted for a trading confederation not:

Common currency
Destruction of borders
VAT
Federalised Europe
Harmonised Bananas
Straight Sausages
Green Carrots
A European President
20,000 beaurocrats doing fuck all but shuffling papers.

Why are all the asylum seekers reaching Britain when the international laws clearly state they must not cross more than 2 friendly borders? How many between Afghanistan and Iraq? The mind boggles.

Nuff already.. What's the alternative?

"Aye...and there's the rub"

 

[Graham]

Nuff already.. What's the alternative?

Mate,

For me the alternative is to pull out. Just because the genie is out of the bottle, it DOESN'T mean it can never be put back in, we just don't have the will to do it...

I'd be happy to save the £6 Billion per year.....

 

[David Sturch]

Just think the EU did not let Turkey in.(Sarkosy) Maybe they are better off.
Dave

 

[Keith]

Turkey in Europe - that's a laugh. Poor old Constatine he must be turning in his sepulchre...

Personally I think they should invite North Korea into the European Union so we wouldn't have to 'shell out' so much..

 

[just ernst]

yes, something is wrong, but??,...is it real the eu??, or the idea behind??,....what i see is, there is no thru around, what you read in newspaper, what you hear in radio or tv, what you hear from local politics,.....is for 70% a missinterpretation from the reality, or should i say,...a lie??,....all the people dont know what to think about, what the future will bring, and what happens with the personaly money of each,.....
but is this all happend because the EU ??
i dont think so, and i dont think we get a world-country with only one law, i dont think this is because the ---bilderberger---,....
speak with a friendly banker about, read what all the banker´s are able to do, or not to do, speak with lokal politika, and hear what they ar telling, or not telling,....look at the money from this people, what they all earn each month, and what they work for,....look around and realize who is making the big money in moment, and who not,...
in most countrys i hear coruption, personaly i see, if someone had enough money, he could say what to do, looks like the laws had changed,...money makes the law´s,.....
äthik is gone, friendship is gone, loyality is gone,..and if your neighbor could blame you with money,..he do it,......
what is with this bankerfolk, burning money into tv??,....puking on all of us??,...and earning money for theyr fail???,...wow,....this is a big problem,.....all the money-junkies around,....

if we travel to a race in spain, we had only euros with us,...good,....we dont stop at the border´s and show all our papers if we ar legal, the motocycles are legal, the drinks are legal,.....and if i sell a jet-ski to uk,...no problem, the same if i need a raceclutch from london,.....no problem at all,.....if i had a valid uid-nr,..i dont pay vat,...perfekt,.....no, i know, this is not all to be happy about but, what should we do, if we dont have the EU???,.....would we be allive without this EU??,...i dont know, i only remember the time before EU into my country,.....and,....it was not so good

dont missunderstand my thinking, yes, i was pro eu, and yes, the idea behind is great, 100%, but some do it wrong, change it to a direction we run in moment, and we must say stop,....to our politikan, to our bankers, to all people want makes money with our soul,....

look at italy,...i hear the whole day in radio,...is this normal??,...

call me a fool, but only step out of EU will change nothing, or does anywho think, if the neighbor-country goes down, we dont pay for it??,......we pay,....we do it before EU and we do it during, and we do it after EU,....so what is the difference??

sorry, i must write this

regards,....ernst

 

[Keith]

Don't be sorry Ernst - you make some very valid observations..

 

[Jack]

Ernst, Keith,
I'll hold my tongue a little here, but what is happening in Europe is now happening here in the USA (over-regulation and fiscal responsibility) . The initial premise for the EU was opening borders for trade and travel period! This is good. The Euro was invented as a common currency based on the Duetsche Mark, again maybe good, however, it also locked the "Member States" into a financial system not controlled by thier individual governments (bad). Unfortunately, the EU and the EEC have brought an enormity of regulation in the form of Normative Rules/Regulations and Standards
that is mandantory for all member "states", and has become self-perpetuating.
This is all accomplished without any real form of fiscal responsibility. Just my opinion from far away..

 

[just ernst]

molleur, yes, with some you are right, but our mainproblem is not our perfekt sozialsystem, is not the eu-controll about the "members" money,....the problem is to less finanziell controll about some countrys like greece or slowakia or portugal, or spain,....because they earn money to build a new street,....and they build this street 5 times at the same place,....they build bridges to,withiout a street!!,...i want to say,...the individual goverments was not controlled,...and put the money to the moon,.....build industry, build hotels, noone use it, build citys in the dessert, than noone want to buy,....with big help from big finanziers, bankers, and some lucky money-freaks,......the money is gone, and nothing was build with our money, only unsellable houses, industries, produkts,....and we pay the bill a second time,.......

yes, some parts are real over-regulated, it looks like a puke in our face,...bananas must be short,...apples must be dark-yellow,...and all police-cars and uniforms must look the same,....hahaha,..what an ironie,...what a silly, cracy politik,....

and we get new members, we all know,.....this is a fail,.....we know it in front,......but they would build a big buissenes-place,...big europa,....yes,...but they dont realice, that all this new countrys had no chance to go with,...had no chance in this eu,.....this was a fail to,.....now we had eu-people from eu-countrys around, they work for less money, for 25% loan what our peole get for work,....hahaha,..sometimes i feel a stranger if i go to a restaurant to eat,...no locals bring me the food,...some are not able to speak our language,..but,..all people from an EU-country,.....our big companys travels around in this big economy room, to find the right place to product,....hahaha,..the cheepest place,...with the cheepest people,....and they find such places,...europa is not so big,....70km from my location,..they worked for -30%,...150 km from me,...they worked for -50%,......and i understand this people, what should they do??,..they life in a poor country,..but in an eu-country,.....and theyr goverment???,.....only want to build new motorways, and get companys and makes a gift to this companys, no vat for big production, no payment for location,.....aaaaahhhhh,.....and the local politik´s ??,....speak´s allway´s,.....-----we had no crash, dont speak bader than it is, dont blame us, we allways do the best------,...... and earn money, month to month, unbelifeable,.....
and we??,....we all say´s,....we must leave this chaos-EU,....
but what will happend after??,....the same people had to speak,..the same local goverment trys to get they money to build cracy things, the same bankers brakes the laws,....and we???,....we are alone,...each country,... with there own pest inside,.....nothing changes, nothing,.....

this is not an EU-problem,....what happend in moment is a global problem,....what do you hear in your tv ??,...time goes better and better??,...money lies on the street, you only must be able to get it??,....what an ironie,......and behind the wall´s,...the worked for the next crash, comming sooner we can think,....but not to soon, because some people must make big money before,.....and after,....no problem, let the small and middle companys crash,....let the locals crash, the privat houses crash, the kredits crash,....so the money-junkies can buy a lot,....for only 5 cents,.....

this is what happend in moment, and noone makes a brake, so much people know about, but had the head totaly into sand, hear nothing, think nothing, do nothing,.....and the other´s??,...crying,....we must leave the eu and try to be like swiss,....hahaha,....cracy, noone could be like swiss,....

sorry for my writing, but about this, i am totaly out of me,...

kind regards,...ernst

 

[Jack]

Ernst, Global is the word! Everything seems to be going out of control and I have been predicting this since 1990. The immigration problem actually prevents the "people" from being heard. Not so bad here.

 

[Frank3]

molleur , its alive and well in North America . The whole open border ....
NAFTA super highway up route 35 , and SPP that Bush was pushing , I'm still finding things at work for it . Canada's Mid-Continent Trade Corridor is going full steam , while denials abound in The States . But now clambering of an Amero have changed to adapting the Euro .
But of course I find conspiracy interesting reading .
We all know that the crises is over here , and the summer of recovery was a huge success ! And double digit unemployment my just be the norm ...
It ma only look to me , as though we are being pushed into the same situation as Europe , if not into the EU its self

 

[Jack]

Frank, while I agree with you on this, we do have a much easier political route for change than our European friends do. That was the point that I tried to make.
Thanks for your post.

 

[Frank3]

Molleur , Gotcha , I didn't mean to challenge your point .
But I'm not sure our political route to be easier , we are just in the earlier stages of the process , and I don't believe are willing to understand what has happened in Europe or the direction we're heading in . Hell , I'm trying , and I'm not sure I can quite grasp it myself !
If I understand Just , he is saying The richest are in control . And the ones in control are corrupt . My definition of politics .
and the idea that sounds good can't work under the strain of money and power , And I say as long this strain exists any good intentions will be buried in legislation that ultimately does more harm than good

 

[Terry Oxandale]

2nd law of thermodynamics as applied to economics, or even social structure. The areas of differenence will eventually meld into a single uniform structure with fake boundarys held only on a piece of paper. It's happening here in the US with the electric utility industry, states, and eventually with countries. Until it all plays out, instability (except for the very well prepared, which I will not opine on their identity or class) will be the standard of living.

 

[Al Wohlstrom]

Ahhhh, Big Government, ya gotta love it!

 

[David Sturch]

Frank,
What open border. You can come to Canada easier than I can go the U.S. As for the trade, if my manufacturing plant uses parts manufactured in the U.S. and Homeland Security ties them up at the border for days on end and I run a just in time material system. Maybe I should look to source them some where else. No fault of the buisiness owner or his employees. Bush also signed a deal with Harper that we would always supply oil, reason being the middle east was unstable. You have to keep military machine in motion. We supply 60% of your oil. I wish I could buy it as cheap as you do. I wish I -35 was up and going I would of had those ARP headbolts I ordered from Texas by now. NAFTA was setup so that products and trade moved across boarders freely. It was also a way to improve Mexicos economy,improve the standard of living, so if there was work at home the people would stay there. If your not happy with Canada just Annex us. You'll have to pry my healthcard from my cold dead hands.
Dave

 

[Frank3]

No animosity toward Canada , or even Mexico . But toward politicians ... well . They are the ones that make everything the way it is . They gain power , we get more divided .

I would understand if y'all annex us , but it would be even harder to get those great head bolts .

And I'm sure those guys in Europe are saying Americans always make it about them . But i'm just saying we're heading to where they are .

 

[David Sturch]

Frank,
I was just funn'n with you a bit. I'm waiting for the next economic downturn based on one of many the EU countries. I have always predicted a double dip. The Greek's for one (third time bankrupt) started the ball rolling and Ireland downloading their banks lending failure onto the taxpayer. Too much too fast and not writing off the bank's debt or letting it fail. Next it will be Spain then Italy. Ernst also talking about Slovakia or Slovinia. We all know how the Brit's Banks owned Iceland. Brit's scaling back spending on public sector jobs. It will be interesting in the next six months to see any economic growth or how far the shit hit's the fan. It will also be interesting to how EU/IMF deal with it.
Dave

 

[Graham]

Typical yanks, co-opting my thread. Jeez! :drunk:

Get your own room.

 

[Frank3]

:lol:SEE