A 380 hits another jet at JFK:
YouTube - Air France Airbus 380 jet hits Delta Comair airplane at JFK airport
YouTube - Air France Airbus 380 jet hits Delta Comair airplane at JFK airport
Uuups...
- Thread starter marcus
- Start date
Pat Buckley
GT40s Supporter
Surely the 380 pilots saw how close they were to the smaller jet? If so, they must have thought that it was going fast enough to get out of the way.
That's going to be expensive.
That's going to be expensive.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
The A 380 pilot will have been cleared to a position on the taxiway and is following that route on the greens (centre line lights) which are usually programmed for that particular aeroplane and his limit will usually be in the form of a stop bar. The assumption will be that his aeroplane will have wingtip clearance on that cleared route. I think Jack may have got it in that the smaller aeroplane was not far enough down the (his) taxiway to allow the wingtip clearance for the A380. The aeroplane was designed within the 80m box that ICAO prescribed and ironically the FAA opposed this idea for a long time until they realised they would get left behind in the race for the bigger and bigger. The FAA finally accepted this 80m box and the accomodating gates runways and taxiways at the using airports were re marked to make the allowances. If the A380 was cleared to a point on the airport, nothing should have been in the way to affect him. Too bad for the light aeroplane - bad luck on the day.
Pat Buckley
GT40s Supporter
Does that relieve him of the need to use his eyes and make a judgement?
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Pat ,
These aeroplanes still operate in visibilty down to zero (for landings) though in fog you need about 30 to 40 m ahead to see the first green light when taxying and that is the biggest problem - seeing the green lights ahead of you when you are taxying. Visibilty on landing is never a problem as we all had Cat lllb Autoland. You certainly cannot see your wing tips in fog even if you had time to look. You tend to rely on the fact that you have the clearance. For fog also read night as you cannot see your wing tips at all. That wingtip clearance has to be sacrisanct all the time , day or night, fog or blue skies. I have to say in a fully laden 747-400 at 170 tonnes of fuel the wing tips were drooped so much on the ground they were impossible to see and provided you never digress away from your designated taxiroute, wingtips were never a problem. Even on 27L at LHR there was a passing point where two B747-400s could pass each other and the tips passed about 30 feet apart. Never a problem. (Swept wings do have problems in an area dubbed Swept Wing Growth but that doesn't figure in this incident)
Having looked at that video a couple of times, it may seem the A380 was going quite fast but it equally stopped quite quickly and it doesn't materially change things.
Difficult to know exactly which part of the aerodrome it happened but Air France operate out of terminal one and the A380 may well have been taxying on the Bravo or even Alpha taxiway probably for a Runway 22R departure
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1104/00610AD.PDF
and the light aeroplane had probably just cleared from Runway 13R and was in the area of taxiway Mike Alpha or more likely Lima Alpha or even just waiting for stand
in his terminal and holding short of the ramp . Maybe the smaller aeroplane had been instructed to hold short of the Alpha taxiway - who knows until the tapes are released? (essentially Bravo and Alpha are loops that go right around the International Terminals and the A380 was taxying anticlockwise on either Alpha or Bravo. Anyhow the ground controllers (the most manic frequency at JFK) would see where they are as it's mandatory to use the transponder on Mode c when taxying to show the aeroplane information on the ground radar which is a system called ASDE-X. (I think only JFK use it but that might be wrong.)
I think I'll keep with my previous post - that the pilots on the larger aeroplane would
expect to have wingtip clearance on their designated taxy ways for an aeroplane of that size.
These aeroplanes still operate in visibilty down to zero (for landings) though in fog you need about 30 to 40 m ahead to see the first green light when taxying and that is the biggest problem - seeing the green lights ahead of you when you are taxying. Visibilty on landing is never a problem as we all had Cat lllb Autoland. You certainly cannot see your wing tips in fog even if you had time to look. You tend to rely on the fact that you have the clearance. For fog also read night as you cannot see your wing tips at all. That wingtip clearance has to be sacrisanct all the time , day or night, fog or blue skies. I have to say in a fully laden 747-400 at 170 tonnes of fuel the wing tips were drooped so much on the ground they were impossible to see and provided you never digress away from your designated taxiroute, wingtips were never a problem. Even on 27L at LHR there was a passing point where two B747-400s could pass each other and the tips passed about 30 feet apart. Never a problem. (Swept wings do have problems in an area dubbed Swept Wing Growth but that doesn't figure in this incident)
Having looked at that video a couple of times, it may seem the A380 was going quite fast but it equally stopped quite quickly and it doesn't materially change things.
Difficult to know exactly which part of the aerodrome it happened but Air France operate out of terminal one and the A380 may well have been taxying on the Bravo or even Alpha taxiway probably for a Runway 22R departure
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1104/00610AD.PDF
and the light aeroplane had probably just cleared from Runway 13R and was in the area of taxiway Mike Alpha or more likely Lima Alpha or even just waiting for stand
in his terminal and holding short of the ramp . Maybe the smaller aeroplane had been instructed to hold short of the Alpha taxiway - who knows until the tapes are released? (essentially Bravo and Alpha are loops that go right around the International Terminals and the A380 was taxying anticlockwise on either Alpha or Bravo. Anyhow the ground controllers (the most manic frequency at JFK) would see where they are as it's mandatory to use the transponder on Mode c when taxying to show the aeroplane information on the ground radar which is a system called ASDE-X. (I think only JFK use it but that might be wrong.)
I think I'll keep with my previous post - that the pilots on the larger aeroplane would
expect to have wingtip clearance on their designated taxy ways for an aeroplane of that size.
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Pat Buckley
GT40s Supporter
I see.
Thanks David.
Thanks David.
The news tonight (ABC) was that the smaller jet was forced to stop short to avoid a ground vehicle that was passing near (below the line of sight under the nose) going right to left. Also, JFK was given a pass on the requirement for a 200 foot wide taxi way (for the A380), and was some 50 feet less. A true 'snowball' accident. I sure wouldn't have been standing in the cabin when the smaller jet finally stopped.
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Even 200 ft wouldn't do it - even the B747-400 is 211 ft and Swept Wing Growth could push that figure to possibly 250ft. The incident was so so close, and given maybe another five feet it might not have happened. Have a look at the port wing nav light (red) on the airbus and how it's extinguished in the incident which is where the A380 impacted the Comair. So close.
I guess the rules will have to be changed again to allow these bigger aeroplanes
to operate without hindrance because for the major airports Big is beautiful.
In a litigation crazy country like the U.S.A., and because it's an aviation accident (an industry where blame culture is rampant) , who takes the rap, the blame?
I'll take odds that it's not the airport to blame. Who has the least expense tied in to his training and experience? Probably the skipper in the Comair aeroplane. He should have had right of way over a car surely? Taxying accidents will continue to happen in JFK so maybe they should rethink the proximity of Alpha and Bravo taxyways and combine them into one taxiway like a roundabout around the International Terminals.
We always used to carry extra fuel out of JFK and the reason was the length of taxying - I've pushed back and finally got airborne 90 minutes apart and that used about 4 tons. Why did it take so long - because some of the taxyways were so constricted we had to go a different route to the threshold and then once you are in the queue it's just sheer weight of numbers. I once heard about a guy when it got to his turn to go, he cancelled his flight plan and lined up, taxied to the far end and cleared again. The reason? He's had about two hours of taxying and now had insufficient fuel for his trip.
I guess the rules will have to be changed again to allow these bigger aeroplanes
to operate without hindrance because for the major airports Big is beautiful.
In a litigation crazy country like the U.S.A., and because it's an aviation accident (an industry where blame culture is rampant) , who takes the rap, the blame?
I'll take odds that it's not the airport to blame. Who has the least expense tied in to his training and experience? Probably the skipper in the Comair aeroplane. He should have had right of way over a car surely? Taxying accidents will continue to happen in JFK so maybe they should rethink the proximity of Alpha and Bravo taxyways and combine them into one taxiway like a roundabout around the International Terminals.
We always used to carry extra fuel out of JFK and the reason was the length of taxying - I've pushed back and finally got airborne 90 minutes apart and that used about 4 tons. Why did it take so long - because some of the taxyways were so constricted we had to go a different route to the threshold and then once you are in the queue it's just sheer weight of numbers. I once heard about a guy when it got to his turn to go, he cancelled his flight plan and lined up, taxied to the far end and cleared again. The reason? He's had about two hours of taxying and now had insufficient fuel for his trip.
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Im not sure your going to be able to pin the accident on the com-air pilot. And while I sympathise with the AF pilot, it is his responsibility to ensure the safety of his aircraft. He may not be able to see the wings from his seat, but thats not really an excuse, if he was in any doubt he should have stopped and had the wing tip clearance checked. Looking at that video I doubt wether the AF pilot had seen the com-air aircraft at all.
YouTube - Air Traffic Control Audio: Air France Airbus A380 Hits Delta CRJ-700
The Ground Control audio of the incident
The Ground Control audio of the incident
David Morton
Lifetime Supporter
Jon,
You make a valid point but consider LVP procedures - nothing would ever move. You sit there in a bubble of limited vis and all you have is a sphere around you that depends only on the visibility. You have to make decisions and a lot of those depend on the airport facilities. I did a cat 3 into Linate in 2001 and then I couldn't clear the runway as I couldn't find the exit taxiway so I stopped . I asked for radar assistance to be told "ground radar is notta working, I send a truck to marshall you". The Stop Follow me arrived after about 10 minutes and a few seemingly angry ' go arounds ' and then managed to get us both lost after a crazy drive through the fog. I ended up shut down no where near my allocated ramp and waited for stairs for about an hour. If I had been told no radar I would not have attempted a Cat lll landing. Very shortly after that (within a week) SAS hit a Citation and both ended up in the freight sheds with no survivors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linate_Airport_disaster
It's all about making judgements. Nobody makes bad judgements intentionally but nothing ever happens is everything stops for checking wing tips. Some things have to be "assumed" in this non ideal world.
You make a valid point but consider LVP procedures - nothing would ever move. You sit there in a bubble of limited vis and all you have is a sphere around you that depends only on the visibility. You have to make decisions and a lot of those depend on the airport facilities. I did a cat 3 into Linate in 2001 and then I couldn't clear the runway as I couldn't find the exit taxiway so I stopped . I asked for radar assistance to be told "ground radar is notta working, I send a truck to marshall you". The Stop Follow me arrived after about 10 minutes and a few seemingly angry ' go arounds ' and then managed to get us both lost after a crazy drive through the fog. I ended up shut down no where near my allocated ramp and waited for stairs for about an hour. If I had been told no radar I would not have attempted a Cat lll landing. Very shortly after that (within a week) SAS hit a Citation and both ended up in the freight sheds with no survivors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linate_Airport_disaster
It's all about making judgements. Nobody makes bad judgements intentionally but nothing ever happens is everything stops for checking wing tips. Some things have to be "assumed" in this non ideal world.
