As if it couldn't get any worse....

[Graham]

Pete, I feel for you now.... It seems Aus is now as bad as the UK.... ​

Victorian schools allowed to bar non-believing teachers under law change <!-- google_ad_section_end(name=story_headline) -->​

<!-- // .story-headline -->

• By Grant McArthur and Stephen McMahon
• From: <CITE>Herald Sun </CITE>

RELIGIOUS schools will be able to reject teachers belonging to different faiths under Baillieu Government changes to Victoria's equal opportunity laws. <!-- google_ad_section_end(name=story_introduction) -->

<!-- // .story-intro --><!-- google_ad_section_start(name=story_body, weight=high) -->Christian schools will be able to ban single-parent teachers or others not fitting their beliefs. Jewish and Islamic schools will be able to hire only those teachers who uphold their values.
Islamic schools will also be able to make head scarfs compulsory for female students in changes that allow faith-based schools to uphold their religion through uniform and behaviour standards.
Strict equal opportunity laws banning discrimination against teachers were initiated by the Brumby government last year and were to take effect on August 1.
But the overturning of the laws by the Coalition paves the way for religious organisations to employ only staff who share the beliefs of their communities.​

The reforms will also strip Victoria's Equal Opportunity Commissioner of powers to investigate and enter workplaces.

The commission was to be handed similar powers to the Office of Police Integrity under a Labor policy.
As part of the Coalition's "operation common sense", Attorney-General Robert Clark will force the commission to get VCAT permission before compelling a person or company to hand over documents, attend a hearing or give evidence about claims of persistent discrimination in workplaces.
Mr Clark said removal of employment restrictions for faith-based schools was a commonsense measure to retain a consistent approach, where the values of teachers match those of students, parents and volunteers.
"The changes would apply the same rules to employment as to all other aspects of the organisation's activities - such as provision of services or engagement of contractors," he said.
If challenged on their grounds for rejecting a teacher, schools would have to persuade VCAT their reasons were in keeping with their wider religious beliefs.
That would mean the more extreme the school community's beliefs were, the greater their range of exemptions could be.
Independent Schools Victoria chief executive Michelle Green said she was pleased the Government was amending the legislation so parents wanting a choice for their children's education were not disadvantaged.
"We were concerned that the rights of independent schools to employ the most suitable staff would have been curtailed," she said.
"Choice in education is very important and we think it is common sense that religious schools ought to be able to choose staff they believe are the most appropriate for their school."​

Separation of Church and State anyone??? ​

 

[Jason]

That sucks - almost as stupid as that dopy mare MP that looks like getting her right wing christian abstinence sex education crap through the House of Commons - who votes for these morons?

Let's all enjoy our trip back to the middle ages and bring on the new inquisition.

This is the bit that really pissed me off: ""We were concerned that the rights of independent schools to employ the most suitable staff would have been curtailed," she said.
"Choice in education is very important and we think it is common sense that religious schools ought to be able to choose staff they believe are the most appropriate for their school."


Rights? What about the right of children not to be indoctrinated at an age when they are unable to make reasoned rational decisions?

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

I think I'm being indoctrinated still :embarassed:

The dosy cow (Gillard) has announced, that teenage girls who get pregnate must resume schooling after 6 months of the birth or forfeit their welfare payments. The govmt is adamant that sex "education" is indoctrinated at an early age.
Guess the girls are doing for the money, then. hmmmm Uh Oh

I have a couple of sisters and a brother that teach in that state -- I'll check

 

[TimB]

I guess I am not understandign the outrage or perhaps I am no understanding the issue completely. Are you suggesting that a private institution shouldn't be able to set dress standards or choose the qualifications of those educating the students? If this was a public institution I would fully agree with you but in this case people voluntarily go and pay to attend so they are merely providing the product requested by their customers. My assumption for the law is that it was necesary because someone who didn't meet the qualifications decided to sue them for discrimination and in my opinion the real issue is the litigous nature of people trying to make a name for themselves

 

[Graham]

I guess I am not understandign the outrage or perhaps I am no understanding the issue completely. Are you suggesting that a private institution shouldn't be able to set dress standards or choose the qualifications of those educating the students? If this was a public institution I would fully agree with you but in this case people voluntarily go and pay to attend so they are merely providing the product requested by their customers. My assumption for the law is that it was necesary because someone who didn't meet the qualifications decided to sue them for discrimination and in my opinion the real issue is the litigous nature of people trying to make a name for themselves

Tim, by their very nature, these are not private institutions.

Does this mean that if I wanted to send my children to a "normal" school, that I cold insist on them all being secular / agnostic / atheist?

I think your assumption is incorrect that this is about litigation. Please happily prove me wrong if it is the case, but I doubt it.

I applaud the French for not allowing children to wear religious clothing or symbols in school. It is, after all, a place for learning, NOT indoctrination.

 

[TimB]

In the States a Religious school is a private institution that parents elect to send their children to because they want their children to be taught a particular curriculum along with religeuos studies. Parents are required to pay all tuition costs without any state assistance so that is my frame of reference. In that case I see nothing wrong with asking that the teachers who are delivering said education be of the same faith they are teaching. No one if forced to attend. If by normal school you mean govt funded then yes I fully agree with separation of church and state and beleive public institutions should be neutral with regard to teaching. Sounds like our contries aren't an apples to apples comparison on this

 

[Graham]

In the States a Religious school is a private institution that parents elect to send their children to because they want their children to be taught a particular curriculum along with religeuos studies. Parents are required to pay all tuition costs without any state assistance so that is my frame of reference. In that case I see nothing wrong with asking that the teachers who are delivering said education be of the same faith they are teaching. No one if forced to attend. If by normal school you mean govt funded then yes I fully agree with separation of church and state and beleive public institutions should be neutral with regard to teaching. Sounds like our contries aren't an apples to apples comparison on this

Tim, I agree, this is a cultural difference. However, I personally belive that the dollar should not be able to transcend the mores and morays of a given nation.

Just because you have money, and a particular religion, it should not give you the right to set a different curriculum to "normal" education. Yes, it can be done better, but it should not set it's own educational precedents, including a religious bent.

Why would you send your children to a school that eschews Darwin's theory of evolution in favour of creationism for example?

This is not education, This is indoctrination, whis is diammetrically opposed to education in the round.

 

[TimB]

Agreed there needs to be a base standard of education all institutions hold to and if you want to add religious studies on top of that fine. On the money part there are many people here that beleive in a voucher system where the tax money you pay for education could be spent at the school of your choice public, religious etc so that it isn't a privilege of the rich but avaialble to all. Unfortunately this is where people start screaming separation of church and state because the public institutions rightly fear they will have to compete for the money so I don't ever see it being enacted. By the way as a Christian I want my kids taught all sides including Darwin but I also don't feel evolution negates the idea of a creator setting things in motion. Really good thoughtful conversation thanks.

 

[Graham]

Agreed there needs to be a base standard of education all institutions hold to and if you want to add religious studies on top of that fine. On the money part there are many people here that beleive in a voucher system where the tax money you pay for education could be spent at the school of your choice public, religious etc so that it isn't a privilege of the rich but avaialble to all. Unfortunately this is where people start screaming separation of church and state because the public institutions rightly fear they will have to compete for the money so I don't ever see it being enacted. By the way as a Christian I want my kids taught all sides including Darwin but I also don't feel evolution negates the idea of a creator setting things in motion. Really good thoughtful conversation thanks.

No problem! nice to have an exchange of views without a slanging match :thumbsup:

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Word from siblings :- " Hmm who knows...Big ted is a conservative bastard..so figures!!"

I suspect it may be an initiative to try and instill some moral behaviour into the youth of today.
Sis says they (teachers ) spend most of the day dealing with behavioural issues from the locally bred, were as the migrants are very well behaved, keen to learn and generally reach high achievement . JMO

 

[Graham]

Word from siblings :- " Hmm who knows...Big ted is a conservative bastard..so figures!!"

I suspect it may be an initiative to try and instill some moral behaviour into the youth of today.
Sis says they (teachers ) spend most of the day dealing with behavioural issues from the locally bred, were as the migrants are very well behaved, keen to learn and generally reach high achievement . JMO

Trouble is though Chris, an immigrant may be of one faith, or another, or of no faith at all....

As to them being better behaved, I couldn't agree more., I was in Gdansk last year and the behaviour of the local teens etc was impeccable. Very strong family values too.... It makes our lot look like yobs.

 

[flatchat(Chris)]

Touché

 

[Nick]

Trouble is though Chris, an immigrant may be of one faith, or another, or of no faith at all....

As to them being better behaved, I couldn't agree more., I was in Gdansk last year and the behaviour of the local teens etc was impeccable. Very strong family values too.... It makes our lot look like yobs.

Most likely because their parents respect teachers.

Or maybe because the proportion of Poles who go to church every Sunday is 45 percent, wereas in the UK it's around 6%.

 

[Jason]

Most likely because their parents respect teachers.

Or maybe because the proportion of Poles who go to church every Sunday is 45 percent, wereas in the UK it's around 6%.

Really? So going to church makes you behave well?

dream on...and try reading this for reasoning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

 

[Nick]

Or maybe because the proportion of Poles who go to church every Sunday is 45 percent, wereas in the UK it's around 6%

Really? So going to church makes you behave well?

Jason,

It was said tongue in cheek and was slightly naughty of me. I should have gone to church this morning, may have made me behave for awhile.

Having said that, if the debate was “does going to church makes you behave well”, verses “does going to church make you behave badly”, I know which corner I would like to be arguing for. Especially if I could get a guest appearance from the big G himself.

Although of course I can’t say for cetain which side he would be on

 

[Jason]

Jason,

It was said tongue in cheek and was slightly naughty of me. I should have gone to church this morning, may have made me behave for a while.

Having said that, if the debate was “does going to church makes you behave well”, verses “does going to church make you behave badly”, I know which corner I would like to be arguing for. Especially if I could get a guest appearance from the big G himself.

Although of course I can’t say for cetain which side he would be on

No worries Nick and my apologies for being somewhat abrubt in my posting earlier - and indeed this one, I don't have time at the moment to give a proper resonse to the "does going to church make you behave better" question but I'll come back to it.
Cheers,
Jason

 

[Graham]

Most likely because their parents respect teachers.

Or maybe because the proportion of Poles who go to church every Sunday is 45 percent, wereas in the UK it's around 6%.

Don't worry Nick - I picked up on your tongue in cheek immediately - you naughty monkey

Were you hanging out a sprat to catch a mackerel

 

[Graham]

No worries Nick and my apologies for being somewhat abrubt in my posting earlier - and indeed this one, I don't have time at the moment to give a proper resonse to the "does going to church make you behave better" question but I'll come back to it.
Cheers,
Jason

Jason - You can always tell when Nick is being sarcy....

I think the angriest he's ever got in his posts is to attach an unhappy face....

Not a bad way to be either. I on the other hand am full of piss and vinegar :embarassed:

Cheers!

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

From my personal observations, kids are a product of their parents.
If the parents have respect for social values and authority so will the kids.
If the parents don't take responsibility and are yobs, that's likely how the kids
will turn out.
Doesn't matter what religion they are or which colour.

 

[Price Walton]

From my personal observations, kids are a product of their parents.
If the parents have respect for social values and authority so will the kids.
If the parents don't take responsibility and are yobs, that's likely how the kids
will turn out.
Doesn't matter what religion they are or which colour.

Very observant Pete. It never ceases to amaze me that the parents of the little darlings that spend their time rioting, stealing and dealing drugs never seem to know why they're so wild......