Air France crash

Here's some new info on the Air France accident.

World Tourism and Aviation News
Air_France_Crash_Suggests_Inadequate_Training

It appears the dreaded "pilot error" finding is arising, and unfortunately it appears to have merit if the 'facts' quoted are accurate.
One comment re. stall recovery: in the military, the answer is "unload"/i.e reduce the angle of attack; in the FAA/air transport world the answer is full power/nibble the 'stick shaker' i.e. verge of stall and minimize loss of altitude. I have never subscribed to that theory, if for no other reason than if the airplane is on the verge of stall, why not use what altitude you have available to recover. If you're at 100 feet, use 95 feet, just don't hit the ground; if you're at 1500' (Continental commuter in icing), use whatever it takes to regain flying speed, who cares if you descend to a few hundred feet? You've already screwed up by getting into a stall situation, are you going to "minimize" the screw up by minimizing your altitude loss and/or busting your altitude clearance?
As is obvious, this is a bit of a sore point with me re. FAA flight checks. Granted they need an objective measure, so they come up with a number. In the real world, not crashing is the criteria IMHO, and if the airplane approaches a stall (never ever came close), I don't give a damn how much I bust an altitude clearance. That comes under the heading of judgement, and that's why they pay you the big bucks to sit in the left seat!
 

Pete McCluskey.

Lifetime Supporter
Yes + 1000% when your arse is on the line the rules go out the window.
I think it was Winston who said "rules are for the guidance of wise men and to be followed to the letter by idiots".
 
Its not quite as simple as that guys. And while, yes, ultimately pilot error will be the cause of this accident, those pilots were in a very difficult situation.
 

Keith

Moderator
By the by and apologies for minor thread drift, but caught the documentary on the BA Boeing 777 crash at Heathrow which puzzled many people on this board at the time, plus it seems the AAIB & Boeing for at least 1 year.

It's the answer to an old conundrum. What is it that caused this phenomena and why is it not present after the fact? Ice in the fuel filter, and a £5 machine job cured it.

What amazes me is the certainty, that given a number of seemingly random events coming together which is largely incalculable ahead of a "potential disaster event" - that the slightest, cheapest, silliest part or component in an aircraft (of which there are thousands if not millions) can kill people without warning.
 
It's the answer to an old conundrum. What is it that caused this phenomena and why is it not present after the fact? Ice in the fuel filter, and a £5 machine job cured it.

What amazes me is the certainty, that given a number of seemingly random events coming together which is largely incalculable ahead of a "potential disaster event" - that the slightest, cheapest, silliest part or component in an aircraft (of which there are thousands if not millions) can kill people without warning.

Not unlike the the USS Thresher incident where it was found a filter in the air line that iced over under emergency blow conditions prevented her from reaching the surface.

Now how's that for thread drift :)
 

Keith

Moderator
A submarine "flies" doesn't it? Except in a different medium, and, it can "crash" - so yes, relevant :thumbsup:
 
No question this was very tough situation, dark, bouncing around and instrument failure. Then again, every accident that ever happened was a difficult situation for the pilot, one that he couldn't handle. In this case, knowing they pulled up (to 38,000') to a stalled situation, it appears they held that attitude (14 degrees nose up?, full power, altimeter unwinding rapidly, vertical velocity pegged downhill) for 4 minutes until they hit the water.
Monday morning quarterbacking is obviously easy, but if these points are true, this didn't have to happen.
New 'electric' jets (fly by wire) unfortunately tend to introduce new problems because there is less 'feel'. Older jets would 'talk' to you, shudder, buffet etc when near a stall. An experienced pilot would know how it was flying just by the feel and stick forces required. The electrics in the new ones tend to mask these indicators.

The ongoing discussion re. old style 'steam powered' cockpits, new glass cockpits, computers and pilot training/experience/wages will no doubt continue ad infinitum :eek:)
 
I don't know what press covarage you've all seen but it said that one line was taken out this report before being published. This line criticized the fact that the stall alarms were very simular to all other alarms and so did not priorities the actions for the pilots.
Certain when these babies throw their toys out of their pram you need to be ready to do some clear thinking: do things that the machine was not capable off..............
 
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