Burning Volts.

[Bob Fechter]

Aw look out now. The lithium battery may just be a bit of a safety hazard. Gee, and I was so looking forward to buying an overpriced tin can.

Lithium Batteries Said Investigated After GM Volt Fire - Bloomberg

But, they don't even have to be in a crash!

Warning issued for electric car owners after Mooresville house fire - News Story - WSOC Charlotte

 

[Ian K]

Aw look out now. The lithium battery may just be a bit of a safety hazard. Gee, and I was so looking forward to buying an overpriced tin can.

Lithium Batteries Said Investigated After GM Volt Fire - Bloomberg

But, they don't even have to be in a crash!

Warning issued for electric car owners after Mooresville house fire - News Story - WSOC Charlotte

Bob - did you actually read the articles?

In the first, the NHTSA says "that based on available data, there’s no greater risk of fire with a Volt than a traditional gas-powered car". Also, "In June, GM and NHTSA both crashed a Volt and couldn’t replicate the May fire, said Greg Martin, a spokesman for the automaker. GM has safety procedures for handling the Volt and its battery after an accident. Had those been followed, there wouldn’t have been a fire, he said in a phone interview".

In the second, the fire has was initially attributed to the charger, not the batteries or car itself. There has been no conclusions as to the cause yet, but they have also stated that other things were plugged in at the same area of the garage and could also have been the culprit.

Ian

 

[Gail Miles]

I've just read about this a while ago.This goes to show how electric cars can be hazardous despite it's eco-friendliness.They said that a security exploration is being started into whether the batteries in the Volt pose a possible safety hazard.There were also reports that Volt uses lithium ion battery packs, just like a laptop computer which also explodes in shock. The batteries comprise banks of small cells. If any cells are damaged or deformed, it can cause an electrical short.Well,I guess we could say the concern over electric car fire risk is more smoke than fire.I've read the article here: Safety investigation into Chevy Volt fire under way

 

[Damian]

Bob while I HATE hybrid cars you have to be careful with this. You see Ferrari's 458 are NOTORIOUS for spontaneously catching fire which from as I understand it is something that has plagued most Ferrari's (they really are built like sh!t but no one buys them becaue they are great cars). The Ferrari's have a petrol engine and there are many more cases of a Ferrari burning up than a hybrid. Just don't want to see you back yourself into a corner.

 

[Bob Fechter]

Bob while I HATE hybrid cars you have to be careful with this. You see Ferrari's 458 are NOTORIOUS for spontaneously catching fire which from as I understand it is something that has plagued most Ferrari's (they really are built like sh!t but no one buys them becaue they are great cars). The Ferrari's have a petrol engine and there are many more cases of a Ferrari burning up than a hybrid. Just don't want to see you back yourself into a corner.

Hiya, Damian! I don't think the government is ever going to force us to drive Ferraris, but I do believe "golf carts" are in our future.

My point in posting this is to alert people that these vehicles aren't some benign Disney ride that will make the world a better place. We haven't even touched on the surface of what mining for battery ingredients is doing. What ever happened to the acid rain activists?
Then there's the inefficiencies of electricity as a energy source, etc., etc., but never mind.

Thanks for your concern about corners, but I like stretching myself. Metaphorically speaking, I've enjoyed many a time falling down stairs just to see if I can land on my feet at the bottom!

Keep up the good posts, my friend!

lonesomebob.

 

[Ian K]

My point in posting this is to alert people that these vehicles aren't some benign Disney ride that will make the world a better place. We haven't even touched on the surface of what mining for battery ingredients is doing. What ever happened to the acid rain activists?
Then there's the inefficiencies of electricity as a energy source, etc., etc., but never mind.

This I concur with heartily. With hybrids and full electric vehicles, people are ignoring those issues. The inefficiencies of electricity will probably go away as tech improves, but you still have to deal with all of the mining for ingredients, how to dispose of dead batteries and their byproducts, as well as the increase in electricity production that will be necessary to charge these things up.

Don't get me wrong, the articles you linked to are not as big of a deal as they are being made out to be with respect to electric/hybrid vehicle safety - these issue have already been examined. The NHTSA's failure to follow manufacturer procedure post accident is what led to that fire. Granted, as things are examined further, procedures will be improved upon, much like what has been going on for decades with gasoline powered vehicles. But, I am not all for electric powered vehicles since there are still a lot of issues that need to be raised. They are not as green and fossil fuel free as people like to think they are.

Ian

 

[Bob Fechter]

This I concur with heartily. With hybrids and full electric vehicles, people are ignoring those issues. The inefficiencies of electricity will probably go away as tech improves, but you still have to deal with all of the mining for ingredients, how to dispose of dead batteries and their byproducts, as well as the increase in electricity production that will be necessary to charge these things up.

Don't get me wrong, the articles you linked to are not as big of a deal as they are being made out to be with respect to electric/hybrid vehicle safety - these issue have already been examined. The NHTSA's failure to follow manufacturer procedure post accident is what led to that fire. Granted, as things are examined further, procedures will be improved upon, much like what has been going on for decades with gasoline powered vehicles. But, I am not all for electric powered vehicles since there are still a lot of issues that need to be raised. They are not as green and fossil fuel free as people like to think they are.

Ian

Ian, another thing that makes me suspicious is how all the enthusiast magazines, Car and Driver, Road and Track, Autoweek, etc. are rushing in lockstep to praise the hybrid and electrics without a single dissent or question to the economics and consequences.

 

[Jeff Young]

I certainly don't think the editorials in Car & Driver "praise" the hybrids and electrics, or CAFE standards. In fact, I think Brock Yates and Patrick Bedard and others were/are pretty critical. As they should be. It's emerging technology, it has flaws, it's not perfect and it's not a perfect solution (nothing is).

But it's something we have to look at and work on because, at some point, whether it is 20 years or 50 years or 100 years, fossil fuels will be in limited enough supply that powering billions of vehicles with them will not be practical.

Note how it is possible to have a reasonable discussion here if you avoid the "liberals are destroying our hobby and the world" crap.

 

[Bob Fechter]

I certainly don't think the editorials in Car & Driver "praise" the hybrids and electrics, or CAFE standards. In fact, I think Brock Yates and Patrick Bedard and others were/are pretty critical. As they should be. It's emerging technology, it has flaws, it's not perfect and it's not a perfect solution (nothing is).

But it's something we have to look at and work on because, at some point, whether it is 20 years or 50 years or 100 years, fossil fuels will be in limited enough supply that powering billions of vehicles with them will not be practical.

Note how it is possible to have a reasonable discussion here if you avoid the "liberals are destroying our hobby and the world" crap.

"look at and work on" is all fine, but they are being pushed now, and it just isn't happening right now.

 

[Jeff Young]

I agree they are being pushed, and I further agree that things like the environmental impact of batteries are not being considered.

I don't think that, at the very least, C&D is part of some lockstep push for hybrids. In fact, I think the truth is the opposite with C&D.

There has also been a concerted push against electrics - take a gander at Who Killed the Electric Car? sometime. It's biased, but it is a side of the story you don't hear often.

 

[Ian K]

The environmental impact is being looked at, it just hasn't reached a fervor yet.

Lithium batteries have been noted for fire issues for some time. However, they are currently one of the more successful battery technologies as far as performance, power, capacity, and overall packaging.

Yes, they are being pushed, but the R&D is also advancing quickly.

Ian

 

[Terry Oxandale]

The carbon footprint for charging these vehicles is what concerns me. Until emissions from fossil fuel generators can be better controlled, this will likely surpass the emissions issues of motorized transportation (and again, the mining of that fuel). Sure, NG is a great option for generators, but then the price of ground water contamination becomes into play with the pretty much unregulated fracking process. More and more, the one answer that appears to have the most merit is conservation, such as increased CAFE standards. Gad; I hope I finish my project before the internal combustion motor is made obsolete.

 

[Bob Fechter]

Again, our carbon footprint, carbon being an essential part of our atmosphere with plenty of natural mechanisms, plants, to convert it, is made a problem in the cleanest industrial country, and no efforts being made to clean up the real polluters, China and India for starters.

I still believe the answer is the redistribution of wealth.

I want everyone to be able to complete their projects. I want everyone and their future generations to complete their projects.

 

[Damian]

I have said it before and posted DIFFERENT STUDIES where all of the experts claim that a hybrid is as bad as most petrol driven vehicles. In the most recent one I posted TOYOTA ADMITS that their DUMB$$ sorry PRIUS was no more efficient than it's gas powered line. Problem is that we have a certain faction here that REFUSE to admit that this is nothing but a gimmick and have not only drank the cool aide but made seconds and thirds!!!!! This is def. a push by some old men who have been in office way beyond their usefulness and are using this as a political new age movement to keep themselves relevant. This is a joke. I love how no one has pointed out that one of the MAJOR REASONS these things exist in the first place is so that we could keep on buying corvettes, Porsche's, etc. See CAFÉ standards takes the AVERAGE ACROSS ALL FLEET VEHICLES and that's the magic #. It's the whole reason the prius, volt type cars exist. Oh I could go on and how how this is nothing but a scam but I have a feeling that a certain power in charge here is going to go crazy if I post ANOTHER STUDY (especially where the car manufacturer ADMITS THE TRUTH) and I might find myself in the time out box!!!! Just go over my recent threads and you'll see what I mean. Oh and BOB I know you can handle yourself it's just that I have gone round for round with the aformentioned power that be and I can tell he is about at his end with me about this and I didn't want you to suffer his wrath when it comes.

 

[Bob Fechter]

I have said it before and posted DIFFERENT STUDIES where all of the experts claim that a hybrid is as bad as most petrol driven vehicles. In the most recent one I posted TOYOTA ADMITS that their DUMB$$ sorry PRIUS was no more efficient than it's gas powered line. Problem is that we have a certain faction here that REFUSE to admit that this is nothing but a gimmick and have not only drank the cool aide but made seconds and thirds!!!!! This is def. a push by some old men who have been in office way beyond their usefulness and are using this as a political new age movement to keep themselves relevant. This is a joke. I love how no one has pointed out that one of the MAJOR REASONS these things exist in the first place is so that we could keep on buying corvettes, Porsche's, etc. See CAFÉ standards takes the AVERAGE ACROSS ALL FLEET VEHICLES and that's the magic #. It's the whole reason the prius, volt type cars exist. Oh I could go on and how how this is nothing but a scam but I have a feeling that a certain power in charge here is going to go crazy if I post ANOTHER STUDY (especially where the car manufacturer ADMITS THE TRUTH) and I might find myself in the time out box!!!! Just go over my recent threads and you'll see what I mean. Oh and BOB I know you can handle yourself it's just that I have gone round for round with the aformentioned power that be and I can tell he is about at his end with me about this and I didn't want you to suffer his wrath when it comes.

Warning much appreciated, Damian. Why anyone would want to suppress valid info so crucial to the future of our hobby is a mystery.

 

[Terry Oxandale]

Again, our carbon footprint, carbon being an essential part of our atmosphere with plenty of natural mechanisms, plants, to convert it, is ....

As usual every statement has pros and cons, and usually only one side is presented. True, carbon is essential, up to a point. Just because it's essential doesn't mean that unhealthy increases would make it even better. The ocean absorbs a large amount of carbon, but increased absorption then upsets the chemistry by increasing the acidity to the point that coral and shellfish are challenged to maintain the shells. Carbon uptake by vegetation is questionable as to the deforestation taking place. So yes, nature can take care of itself...up to a point. Some think that "science" is full of itself, and tries to distort their view of the world, and that the scientific community hasn't produced enough evidence to provide a convincing argument. How much worse would it be if that missing knowledge is the knowledge of how much worse (is understated) it may be rather than how overstated it is?
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" /><o></o>
It is arrogant to think we can know everything there is to know about balancing the environment of this planet (for those that care or don't care), and acting as if we have no impact, and will have no future impact on it. <o></o>
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When we only had 3 billion people on this planet, it was a much different story in than it is today with 7 billion, and counting fast.

 

[Bob Fechter]

It certainly is arrogant to predict all this mayhem when we can't be sure if its going to rain tomorrow.

I'll repeat a statement from the UN's IPCC.

Thursday, 18 November 2010 13:16 Neue Zürcher Zeitung

"Climate policy has almost nothing to do anymore with environmental protection, says the German economist and IPCC official Ottmar Edenhofer. The next world climate summit in Cancun is actually an economy summit during which the distribution of the world’s resources will be negotiated."

If it were really about pollution control, they would be going after China and India. That will never happen, especially in China, and they will continue increasing their pollution to keep their growing billions of people employed so they won't revolt.

 

[craig]

I have to chuckle when Limbaugh calls out the electric car as being coal driven..

 

[Terry Oxandale]

If it were really about pollution control, they would be going after China and India. That will never happen, especially in China, and they will continue increasing their pollution to keep their growing billions of people employed so they won't revolt.

Which is why I made no mention of climate control. That, and environmental quality, are different, yet many can justifiably draw a link between the two.

Interesting. Seems many in the US advocate a similar strategy (quote), which is rationalizing away environmental quality by using the excuse that it costs jobs.

 

[Bob Fechter]

Which is why I made no mention of climate control. That, and environmental quality, are different, yet many can justifiably draw a link between the two.

Interesting. Seems many in the US advocate a similar strategy (quote), which is rationalizing away environmental quality by using the excuse that it costs jobs.

Well, it does cost jobs when there isn't an equal playing field. Do you remember back in the Seventies when the smog and crash laws went into effect? The imports were given an extra three years to comply and the US cars had to do it right here right now. That's why Seventies American cars were such pigs. The Japanese, especially, took full advantage of their ability to build a better car and they have dominated ever since.

But the main dilemma is that it opened the door for politicians and bureaucrats to design cars.