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Old 20th February 2012, 03:14 PM   #21
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Catastrophic health insurance was cheap. My dad could afford that too.

Shall we get into how much it costs to bring a new drug to market because of the government, and then it gets stolen by foreign countries?

Shall we go into how much the prices went up when the DEEP pockets of the US government started buying?
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Old 20th February 2012, 03:14 PM   #22
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Damn dude, post 5 or 6 without a single substantive thing to add to the discussion other than insults?

That's pretty impressive even for this place.
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Old 20th February 2012, 03:14 PM   #23
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Why don't you cheap asses cut a check to Ron and at least support the site that you feel the need to defecate I mean pontificate all over? These sites don't just grow on trees like liberals think everything else does!
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Old 20th February 2012, 03:17 PM   #24
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Ah! So there we go. We are now acknowledging that, in fact, you didn't pay for health care, you paid for insurance. That's step 1.

You'll have to explain how drugs get "stolen" by foreign countries (all except China recognize and enforce US patent laws) and what you mean by that mumbo jumbo in your last sentence.

The fact remains that per capita health care costs in single payer systems range from 30 to 50% LESS than what we pay here. The basic reason for that is that for the sick and the injured, health care is NOT a market good. It is a necessity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonesomebob View Post
Catastrophic health insurance was cheap. My dad could afford that too.

Shall we get into how much it costs to bring a new drug to market because of the government, and then it gets stolen by foreign countries?

Shall we go into how much the prices went up when the DEEP pockets of the US government started buying?
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Old 20th February 2012, 03:19 PM   #25
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Seven.

Ron lives up the road from me. He gets plenty of support from me trust me.

So now we are pulling the "I contribute to the site so I get to dictate what we we discuss card?" That's lovely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MHNCO View Post
Why don't you cheap asses cut a check to Ron and at least support the site that you feel the need to defecate I mean pontificate all over? These sites don't just grow on trees like liberals think everything else does!
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Old 20th February 2012, 03:21 PM   #26
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Well that's good. At least your not a total bag of worthless hot air! How about your Mensa club brother?
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Old 20th February 2012, 03:25 PM   #27
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Re: Why am I conservative??

It just occurred to me... I have to go lol! Have fun!

"Never argue with an liberal. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience"
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Old 20th February 2012, 03:25 PM   #28
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Eight.

You're on a roll dude. You think you can hit ten straight posts with no substance/insults only?
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Old 20th February 2012, 03:26 PM   #29
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Nine...so close!
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Old 20th February 2012, 03:30 PM   #30
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Craik View Post
(QUOTE: Jeff,

I have found that these debates go along just like this one, until you post actual data.

Then the debat turns to some version of "that's bullshit".

Now we enter the last stage, when you say "show me were I'm wrong" or my favorite "what have I said that is not true".

Then they will either change the subject, become bored, or use some variation of "I know you are wrong, but I have better things to do"..........but someday......

Finally they turn to personal attacks.

Here we have a different cast, but the play still has the same ending.
*********************

Let's see..............

Check!

Check!

Check!

Check!
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Old 20th February 2012, 04:16 PM   #31
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Quote:
Originally Posted by MHNCO View Post
Why don't you cheap asses cut a check to Ron and at least support the site that you feel the need to defecate I mean pontificate all over? These sites don't just grow on trees like liberals think everything else does!
I think Michael has pulled off the hard to do "Double"........

Very impressive, the way you combined a "Change of Subject" With a "Personal Attack".
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Old 20th February 2012, 06:51 PM   #32
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Ladies ladies ladies! The worst part about a liberal elitist is that they have no sense of humor. If you're asking me if I can go on and on finding buttons to push with you two curmudgeons... well duh. It's really easy lol. I hope when I grow up I don't turn into a crotchety old fart like you two. I'm hitting unsubscribe now so please feel free to piss into the wind all you like lol. Bye!
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Old 20th February 2012, 06:53 PM   #33
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Funny thing is, I might be younger than you.

And.....TEN! Ding! Ten posts, no substance, just insults.
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Old 20th February 2012, 07:00 PM   #34
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Jeff,

From what I can tell, Michael has been a "crotchety fart for some time"....

Old is just a state of mind, I personally feel about 35.
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Old 20th February 2012, 10:01 PM   #35
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Craik View Post
(QUOTE: I have found that these debates go along just like this one, until you post actual data.
There is a certain rhythm to these debates, isn't there? I am compelled to point out that neither you nor Jeff have actually posted any "actual data," unless you want to count Jeff's statement that
Quote:
The fact remains that per capita health care costs in single payer systems range from 30 to 50% LESS than what we pay here.
Are these the actual facts you speak of? I'd like to see some actual tech to back them up. Of course, Jeff has chosen to omit any comparison of tax rates or government expenditures as a percent of GDP from his 30-50% discount factoid, let alone any sort of meaningful quantitative or qualitative evaluation of the quality of health care offered there versus here. Hint: people from other countries come to the US for health care paying from their own wallet, not the other way around.

The only "actual data" that has been posted was Veek's opening shot, which has been largely ignored and completely derailed in subsequent posts. So please allow me to bring some "actual facts" to this sorry-ass excuse for a discussion that's going on in here.

Here's what the US budget deficit/surplus looks like from 1980 (Reagan) to present (Obama). My source here is about a year old, but he used figures from the Congressional Budget Office. Hopefully we can all agree that the numbers are accurate.



Look at the trainwreck that has happened since the US Congress went under Democrat control in 1996, and especially since Obama has been in office. I'm sure someone will point out that things started to get ugly under Bush 43 (they did...he was the second most fiscally irresponsible president in US history), that the surpluses happened under Clinton (during the cold-war peace dividend / dotcom bubble after he cut a deal with House Republicans to reform welfare), and that US government spending grew tremendously during the Reagan years (Reagan was a conservative, but not necessarily a fiscal one but his failure to reign in the federal government was overshadowed by the economic growth that happened on his watch).

Jim, how can you honestly claim that liberals fix these fiscal problems that Emily will face as she gets older when the deficit ballooned, and remains out of control, under the most liberal executive and legislative branches of government that this country has ever seen? Do you really believe your own words? This isn't necessarily a democrat vs republican thing, or even a liberal vs conservative thing, we find ourselves in the kind of situation where every person who loves this country should want to kick every single elected official out of Washington and put some people in there who actually care about the future of their country.
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Old 21st February 2012, 04:55 AM   #36
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Canada looked good in the late 60's, but if it was that good, we would have made it another state! Do you think we all can fit into New Zealand? Well at least all of us except for the 52% who voted for you know who last time. At least they drive on the "correct" side of the road there!!! Give it up. It's already decided! The rest of this is just the dog and pony show until the the dumb votes are counted again.........................
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Old 21st February 2012, 09:08 AM   #37
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Per capita spending on health care both private and public (eliminating your issue related to taxes):

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploa...aupload_f2.JPG

Americans generally less satisfied with their health care system than Canadians, French, English, etc. (single payer systems):

http://content.healthaffairs.org/con...2/185.full.pdf

People come to the US because we do lead the world in high end expensive treatments. We do a much poorer job with the 99% of "normal" health care people need.

Your charts on the debt/deficit are skewed since they place the top listed amount at the top f the chart. Let's look a simple line charts:

The Truth About Who's Responsible For The Explosion In Government Spending - Business Insider

Or a simple line chart here:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defau...ges/USDebt.png

So, since 1980, basically "everyone but Clinton" was responsible for the mess we are in. THe question then becomes, what did we get for the money?

Like I said above, while it scares me silly, economists say we had to have the stimulus and other spending of 08/09/10 t avoid a depression. With Reagan, the spending was probably necessary to end the Cold War.

I'm not Bush hater, but the spending in the last decade to fund two wars, and a huge expansion of Medicare, while cutting taxes, seems to be the big problem.
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Old 21st February 2012, 09:15 AM   #38
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Re: Why am I conservative??

And this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Worthington View Post

Look at the trainwreck that has happened since the US Congress went under Democrat control in 1996, and especially since Obama has been in office.
Is flat out wrong. Republicans controlled both houses of Congress from 94 to 2006 except for a split in the Senate in 98-00.

File:Congress-Graph.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 21st February 2012, 11:49 AM   #39
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Re: Why am I conservative??

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffYoung View Post
I am liberal because we fix all of those problems so she has a bright future, rather than sit around and gripe about them.
Jeff, the answer would be??? More government, more spending, more regulation, wealth redistribution, tax the rich, inspect school lunchboxes, reduce the military to post WW1 levels, more borrowing? Yes I'm griping because I am afraid for the future of my Granddaughter and her generation and liberal answers aren't working. Please give me any factual evidence that Emily will have a better life than our generation? If the answer to Emily's life is to be a ward of the governement, how is that possible? The governement will be insolvent well before she's in middle age. I want them (both parties and government at every level) to stop the spending madness and stop pandering to special interests and most of all stop the lies. Slowing the current rate of spending increase, not paying for the same thing twice are not the same thing as "deficit reduction".
Jeff, I don't know what type of law you practice but could I open up a trust fund for Emily the same way the goverment runs the Social Security Trust Fund?
The resonable solutions from Simpson Bowles were rejected out of hand. Paul Ryan's plan was resoundingly mocked. The Democrat Controlled Senate hasn't passed a budget in three years. Mr. Obama's 2012 budget isn't even being voted upon by the Senate his party controls. His 2011 budget did not get a single vote in the senate.

Please Jeff, what's the answer? What I'm hearing as the message given to the Tea Party, conservatives, Paul Ryan, and Simpson Bowles which is "sit down and shut up", "we'll worry about it later", when it is Emily's problem. That's just not good enough.

Please, please, please either support arresting the size and expense of goverment and it's programs or show me a way that what we are doing now is scalable and sustainable to when Emily will have her own family.
I want to take the fiscal pain now and not defer it to Emily and her generation and that makes me a conservative.
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Last edited by Veek; 21st February 2012 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 21st February 2012, 11:58 AM   #40
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Re: Why am I conservative??

More later, but let's focus on Simpson-Bowles. The President supports it; it is a balanced approach of tax increases and spending cuts to reduce the deficit and debt.

Who doesn't? Pretty much every Tea Partier/Republican who signed Grover Nordquist's pledge and who is afraid of supporting increase for fear of having Nordquist go after him for going back on the "pledge."

P.S. No one wants anyone to be wards of the state. That's not the goal. Stop with the hyperbole.

P.S.S. No one is talking about rolling back defense spending to pre-WWII levels. We still spend more on military than the other SEVEN biggest militaries in the world. Stop with the hyperbole.
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