The Worker's Paradise begins to crumble.

[Mr. Fechter]

Rising costs push California cities to fiscal brink - latimes.com

Maybe if California declares war on China and loses, hmmmmmmmm.

[The Baron]

I think the Chinese probably own it anyway and they are just waiting for it to go bust so they can pick it up for a song free of debt...

[clive]

Bob,

Your constant negativety is bringing this site down.

Please desist.

[The Baron]

It's just Bob's one man Denial of Service attack!

PS, It is the Paddock and the Jokes thread for example is the most subscribed to, posted and read thread on the entire site!

So not all negative Clive and anyway I find some of the negatives positively entertaining...

[Al Wohlstrom]

Originally Posted by Clivec

Bob,

Your constant negativety is bringing this site down.

Please desist.

You can probably find some left wing organization to silence him. Most likely easier to avoid paddock posts, unless some evil bastard is forcing you to read them.

[Doug Sainlar]

Curses, foiled again!!

...that "evil bastard" would be me....

There, I've said it, now I feel SO much better, must go off in search of a right wing organization to provide me with enlightenment.

...NOT!!!!

Cheers!

Doug

[Mr. Fechter]

Originally Posted by Al Wohlstrom

You can probably find some left wing organization to silence him. Most likely easier to avoid paddock posts, unless some evil bastard is forcing you to read them.

Hiya, Al! Poor Clive is still listening to old Mamas and Papas' songs while the reality tries to sink (pun intended) in. We all were told that Cali would sink into the ocean one day, but no one realized it would be due to bankruptcy!

[Mr. Fechter]

Why does YerUgliness remind me so much of Joe Biden?

Originally Posted by YerDugliness

Curses, foiled again!!

...that "evil bastard" would be me....

There, I've said it, now I feel SO much better, must go off in search of a right wing organization to provide me with enlightenment.

...NOT!!!!

Cheers!

Doug

[Doug Sainlar]

Originally Posted by lonesomebob

Why does YerUgliness remind me so much of Joe Biden?

Thanks, Bob...I'm not use to getting compliments from you

Cheers!

Doug

[Mr. Fechter]

Oh, yeah;
Shirtless Biden Washes Trans Am In White House Driveway | The Onion - America's Finest News Source


Thought I was on "ignore" Joe.

[Doug Sainlar]

The Onion? You really expect anyone with cognitive skills greater than that of a screwdriver to believe anything the Onion says, do you? I have never seen a more tongue in cheek organization, though, and do appreciate their sense of humor at times , but realize full well their purpose is entertainment and not enlightenment.

Yes, you WERE on ignore...when Ron mentioned he expected more congenial interactions on the forum I took you off, hoping to see a change in your sharp tongue.

I have not been disappointed...at least not totally. I don't expect you to change your opinions, just the abusive manner in which you choose to address anyone who does not agree with your opinions. Courteous collegial discussion is one thing, outright insults just because someone disagrees with you is another.

Of course, when you post things from "The Onion" as proof for your insults...you really can't expect us who are politically sentient not to at least chuckle in disbelief, can you?

Cheers, LB!!

Doug

[Mark]

You all miss the point. It takes both a left wing and a right wing for the plane to fly! In my opinion, both sides are often right but then both sides are more often wrong.
Until the idiotic, entrenched, self-appointed political spokes people of both sides, finally stop blaming each other for the fuck ups and start to work together to acheive the commonly sought solutions to our problems, we are all doomed to go around and around and around, like demonically possesed lunatics around our burning houses.
Keep it up fellas! You inspire and motivate me to continue working hard to the time I can finally piss off and relax on my boat ignoring this nonsense, while the rest of you flounder in your own diatribe.

[Mark]

This place we call the paddock, could be a truely fantastic opportunity for everyone of varying beliefs and political leanings, to genuinely work through ideas that could be rather enlightening. Although, even if we did acheive something in here, I admit that I doubt anyone on the outside would listen. But hey ho.

Instead, too many people use it to simply throw shit at each other! Usually by quoting other people's often spurious headline comments and ever-so-dodgy statistics, hoping to prove that they are right and the other guy is to blame for all our woes.

Perhaps some posters really are just little people, who get their jollies by throwing this crap around, safe in the comfort of their own, often hidden (users with anonymous names) pulpits.

Try it guys. Offer up some suggestions as to a solution. Don't just sit there spewing out constant streams of blame and accusation at the other guy followed by an equal and opposite amount of denial.

What would you do, oh great and wise commentator?

[The Baron]

Originally Posted by Mark Pickford

This place we call the paddock, could be a truely fantastic opportunity for everyone of varying beliefs and political leanings, to genuinely work through ideas that could be rather enlightening. Although, even if we did acheive something in here, I admit that I doubt anyone on the outside would listen. But hey ho.

Instead, too many people use it to simply throw shit at each other! Usually by quoting other people's often spurious headline comments and ever-so-dodgy statistics, hoping to prove that they are right and the other guy is to blame for all our woes.

It has always been my view that these 'exchanges' would not occur if people were in the same room together. Indeed, I do not believe there would be much political discussion at all and what there was would be polite.

The anonymity of the Internet I believe to be the problem. It allows everyone to say what they like without showing your face or expression - so important in a debate.

It really is totally pointless to try and persuade or enlighten entrenched people on the Internet, and personally, I dislike the thought of trading points of view with someone who may just be picking his nose with the one hand whilst adjusting his shorts with the other(alternately).

[Doug Sainlar]

You know, I actually like what I perceive as the "raucuous" nature of British Parlaiment....they really say it like they feel it!

We should all feel free to express our opinions on these discussions without fearing a verbally abusive response. I do try to maintain a civil tone to my demented ramblings, though....not that I am always successful.

I realize we have two different, diametrically opposed factions here on the forum. I manage to find some good in both, don't think it's any secret that I prefer one over the other without subscribing totally to either viewpoint. Having worked in a field where statistics was important, I know they can be manipulated and therefore am not as impressed with statistical proof as I am with the sense someone makes as they are supporting their position in these discussions. Name calling costs big points in my value system....trolling is reason to be banned, IMHO, and if banning is not possible, at least "ignored"...an act I undertake only if someone crosses the line too many times and demonstrates a pattern of derisive comments.

Kieth is right, it's pointless to think one can persuade another who has already made up their mind...but the discussion IS important, none-the-less, and particularly if it just develops tolerance for others' opinions.

Cheers!

Doug

[The Baron]

Doug, I think it is too easy to build a picture in one's mind about participants in the internet discussion scenario. If you can't see eyes or body language and you barely (or too quickly) read what is posted carefully enough, then personal dislike starts to interfere with what little debating process there is.

But what I do like, and you're going to have to take my word for this, is expressing what I believe to be the truth, from my experience or what little schooling I received and never Googling for an answer which, to me, is pointless. Quite often, what I held to be fact is not quite right, and I like to learn from the experiences and knowledge of others.

I am never that entrenched with any policy or ideology that I couldn't be swayed by good argument. Facts (if indeed they be so) are indisputable, but sometimes my 'facts' will be truer or less so than others.

If there is a disparity between our nations in political terms is that we are possibly a degree more socialistic than the US, but like yourselves, push comes to shove, we are inclined to take the middle ground. (I deliberately do NOT use the word Liberal here for fear of a conflagration)

You will not see any discussion really amongst the British contingent because generally, we are less engaged politically than yourselves. Indeed, I fear that we are becoming too disengaged and entering into somekind of political wasteland.

Now (and this is an opinion) I see that as a direct result of media frenzy in tearing apart anything and everything that a politician might state seconds after it is said - with endless analysys, and instant naysay from the opposite side of the house, and all before the words have actually landed.

Take today. The BBC are trotting out reams of experts condemning the Government already for the 'failed Games' 3 weeks before they start!

News is one thing, damaging speculation is quite another and the media indulge in it in spades. Indeed, opinion is not decided by politicians but by media and as a result, our politicians are held not to be trusted, but an alarming number of the general public will believe what (little) they read in the Sun.

That's me. I used to be a journalist in Fleet Street when I was much younger. I do not recognise the profession now.

Back to respectful discussion chaps!

PS Full marks to anyone who actually reads this post all the way through!

[Pete McCluskey.]

Originally Posted by Mark Pickford

You all miss the point. It takes both a left wing and a right wing for the plane to fly! In my opinion, both sides are often right but then both sides are more often wrong.
Until the idiotic, entrenched, self-appointed political spokes people of both sides, finally stop blaming each other for the fuck ups and start to work together to acheive the commonly sought solutions to our problems, we are all doomed to go around and around and around, like demonically possesed lunatics around our burning houses.
Keep it up fellas! You inspire and motivate me to continue working hard to the time I can finally piss off and relax on my boat ignoring this nonsense, while the rest of you flounder in your own diatribe.

Well said sir!

[Pete McCluskey.]

Originally Posted by Keith1

Doug, I think it is too easy to build a picture in one's mind about participants in the internet discussion scenario. If you can't see eyes or body language and you barely (or too quickly) read what is posted carefully enough, then personal dislike starts to interfere with what little debating process there is.

But what I do like, and you're going to have to take my word for this, is expressing what I believe to be the truth, from my experience or what little schooling I received and never Googling for an answer which, to me, is pointless. Quite often, what I held to be fact is not quite right, and I like to learn from the experiences and knowledge of others.

I am never that entrenched with any policy or ideology that I couldn't be swayed by good argument. Facts (if indeed they be so) are indisputable, but sometimes my 'facts' will be truer or less so than others.

If there is a disparity between our nations in political terms is that we are possibly a degree more socialistic than the US, but like yourselves, push comes to shove, we are inclined to take the middle ground. (I deliberately do NOT use the word Liberal here for fear of a conflagration)

You will not see any discussion really amongst the British contingent because generally, we are less engaged politically than yourselves. Indeed, I fear that we are becoming too disengaged and entering into somekind of political wasteland.

Now (and this is an opinion) I see that as a direct result of media frenzy in tearing apart anything and everything that a politician might state seconds after it is said - with endless analysys, and instant naysay from the opposite side of the house, and all before the words have actually landed.

Take today. The BBC are trotting out reams of experts condemning the Government already for the 'failed Games' 3 weeks before they start!

News is one thing, damaging speculation is quite another and the media indulge in it in spades. Indeed, opinion is not decided by politicians but by media and as a result, our politicians are held not to be trusted, but an alarming number of the general public will believe what (little) they read in the Sun.

That's me. I used to be a journalist in Fleet Street when I was much younger. I do not recognise the profession now.

Back to respectful discussion chaps!

PS Full marks to anyone who actually reads this post all the way through!

I did, also well said, Keeff !
We have a saying in our house "of course it's true, I read it in the paper".
Very much tongue in cheek of course.
I am also amazed at how many reasonably intelligent people believe and quote as gospel anything they see on T V news or read in the paper.
Sadly the days of reporting the news without bias or comment are long gone.

[Doug Sainlar]

Originally Posted by Keith1

PS Full marks to anyone who actually reads this post all the way through!

I did, too, Keith!

I found your opinion quite tenable...I enjoy sports and board games and card games and...well, you get the idea, but winning is not as important to me as playing.

I have a saying..."If you lose the ______ [fill in the blank with the word of your choice...argument, debate, game, election, etc], at least don't lose the lesson".

IMHO, every one of our discussions ought to be a learning experience (not surprising coming from someone who dedicated a career to teaching, eh?). If it isn't, you aren't trying...it just takes some tolerance for the other person's opinion (not just tolerance b/c they have the right to have an opinion, but tolerance for their viewpoint, even if it doesn't sway one's own opinion).

Yin/Yang, good/evil....etc. Each of us has faults and IMHO political apathy is one...IMHO if one does not vote, that person has no right to complain about the way government is operating. If they did, and are still not happy with the government, the ballot box is the place where your voice can be heard the loudest. Sadly, as I thought about this, I thought about how many U.S. citizens there are on this forum and how low of a percentage actually involves themselves in our political discussions. I suspect the percentage of people who vote is very much in line with the percentage of our active members (not counting those who post once, twice, three times and then disappear) who engage in our discussions.

The rest are politically apathetic, IMHO, although I do recognize that some prefer to develop their opinions personally rather than slather them all over the screens of our computers.

Bottom line....VOTE, folks...allow the process to work, then accept the result and if you don't like it look forward to the election, don't walk around spitting up sour grapes for the next 4 years. I know that happens, cost me my best friend when his anger that we didn't share the same political opinions became too much for him to bear. I mentioned how much I missed "...the old Mike", he said "The old Mike will return when the fight with this administration is over". I thought it was a bit foolish, but he is very passionate about his beliefs and if that's what he had to do, power to him, I guess ....he certainly won't hear from me again.

Cheers!

Doug

[Mark]

Thanks to those guys (you know who you are), for making me feel a little less alone!