Dambusters

[Charlie Farley]

Just thought some of you would appreciate the sonic cocktail of 4 Merlin engines, depending on where you are in this world, with your breakfast, lunch or dinner.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22552808

I very much hope the link works for our US and Canadian cousins as there were more than a handful of your volunteers to the RAF, on those raids.

 

[Pat]

It works great on this side of the pond Charley and thanks for sharing.
It seems to me that RAF Bomber Command never seemed to get the recognition that Fighter Command did.
My mother (from the UK) said it was the backlash over the Dresden and other firebombings but that was certainly no worse than what the U.S. did to Hamburg, Berlin or Nagasaki. British bomber losses were staggering and at a near suicidal rate. From the time "Bomber" Harris took charge of the expanded bombing operations until the end of the war, an additional 56,000 commissioned officers and NCOs lost their lives, more officers than the British lost during World War I. (On a single night, Bomber Command suffered more losses than did Fighter Command during the entire Battle of Britain.)
They are an incredibly courageous lot and just as I can't imagine how you get people to fly a low, slow torpedo bomber at a Japanese carrier; it is amazing they were able to get young men to fly deep penetration raids into Germany-at night-in bad weather...
Bless them all.

Bomber Command Heroes recognised at last | UK | News | Daily Express

 

[Charlie Farley]

Glad you enjoyed it Pat. Yes you are entirely correct, Bomber Command's losses were without dispute the heaviest of any unit of any force by percentage, and as you so correctly state, they were singularly the only branch of any of the services to not be awarded a campaign medal. Winston Churchill I believe was to blame in distancing himself from the very orders he gave Harris, in my opinion a very great stain on his character. I'm happy to say I've been chasing the application for the medal , or clasp, that was recently announced, I want my Father to wear it with pride when I take him to the recent memorial unveiled in London. One Kiwi and two Aussies he flew with never made it back. Too long overdue, but there you go, in this day of political correctness I must say i'm a little surprised they got even this belated recognition.

 

[Charlie Farley]

Just as a funny to us car guys...
There's a story that Bomber Harris used to drive back to his house early in the morning from Northolt headquarters at breakneck speed in an open top MG sportscar. The story goes he was once flagged down by a police officer, who, unaware of who he was told him " Sir, if you carry on driving like that you are likely to kill someone!" To which Harris replied "Someone ? I kill thousands every night !!"

 

[Charlie Farley]

Commonwealth & US volunteers recall the raid.

BBC News - Commonwealth pilots recall Dambusters raid

 

[Charlie Farley]

This may be of further interest.

BBC News - Dambusters raid: Retrace the daring journey

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

The link works in OZ too, thanks for posting. My father in law flew spitfires and hurricanes in the battle of Britian, his log book is epic.

 

[Marcus]

"Someone ? I kill thousands every night !!"

Not too far away from the mentality of those he fought against.

BTW, despite the undoubtedly courageous effort of the bomber crews, if you pull away the curtain of self-satisfying romantisations, the simple fact remains that on a larger scale industrial production wasn´t seriously affected while the mayority of civilians killed by the floodwave were POWs (read: Allies).

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Not too far away from the mentality of those he fought against.

BTW, despite the undoubtedly courageous effort of the bomber crews, if you pull away the curtain of self-satisfying romantisations, the simple fact remains that on a larger scale industrial production wasn´t seriously affected while the mayority of civilians killed by the floodwave were POWs (read: Allies).

Yes indeed Marcus , but we won.

 

[Marcus]

Pete,

I´m afraid, I don´t see your point.

Unless, of course, killing civilians is a good thing as long as you win in the end. If that´s the logic, then by looking at all the nations beaten by Germany (read: wars won), all the Dutch, Norwegian, French, Belgian, Polish etc. etc. victims were O.K.

BTW: Even if it was your intent, I´m afraid I didn´t take any offence.

Marcus

 

[Keith]

Not wishing to detract in any way from the heroic deeds of the participants but Harris's assertion that he could win the war by bombing alone probably cost us not only thousands of lives but a few military campaigns too inasmuch as the resources he swallowed pursuing his impossible dream. Unfortunately, many other egomaniacs also failed to learn this same lesson in the aftermath of WWII.

Taking the war to the enemy is one thing but the mass murder of civilians has never ever been right.

German war production actually increased towards the end of the war and the only morale buster for the population was the arrival of the Russians. Bombing did not break our morale either, so why did we think it would have done so for the Germans? So 'fail.'

I am not at all surprised that Churchill distanced himself from this cold hearted egocentric maniac, and I completely understand why no campaign medal was awarded to these brave men at least whilst the dust of Harris's destruction was still falling to earth.

 

[Mark]

I kid you not, but a about five years ago, I was walking through our paddock and the Lancaster flew over the treeline behind me and directly over my head at what must have been less than 150 feet! F*****g amazing. I never found out why it was so low, but was a sensory overload!

 

[Pat]

German war production actually increased towards the end of the war and the only morale buster for the population was the arrival of the Russians. Bombing did not break our morale either, so why did we think it would have done so for the Germans? .

Keith, I don't agree with your conclusion. German war production indeed peaked in 1944 compared to the onset in 1939 largely because they didn't mobilize the industrial base until 1942, well after Britain did. Hitler delayed the mobilization because he knew he was waging what might be unpopular wars of aggression, and wanted to keep the German people fat, dumb and happy, much like Lyndon Johnson did during the Vietnam War. Neither believed they would be facing a protracted conflict.
The strategic bombing indeed crippled German oil production and transportation infrastructure. They had tanks and bombers but no way to fuel them or transport them to the front. Further, by mid-1944 the effect of the bombing had decimated the Luftwaffe and allowed the allies to land virtually unopposed by air at Normandy and move across Europe from both the east and west. In the USAAF strategic bombing survey after the war they determined that one massive error the U.S. bombing offensive made was the failure to place the German electrical grid at the same prioritization as oil and transportation. Remember the "Dam Busters" were targeting hydro-electric dams. The USAAF concluded it was a major error not to have followed up on the raids and to have maintained pressure on the German power grid, affecting industrial production.
As for German morale, remember that also in 1944 members of the general staff attempted to murder Mr. Hitler, certainly a morale indicator. Also remember the penalty for any "defeatism" or criticism of the Nazi regime, a visit from the Gestapo -and they weren't just doing tax audits. Summary Courts Martial had been ordered to ‘ruthlessly suppress any sign of defeatism with death sentences’. Death was the penalty for officials leaving their posts. The Nazi network of Gauleiters (provincial governors) were expected to fight and die at their posts. Only two of them did - 40 others ran away. Some 30,000 troops were accused of desertion - 20,000 of them were shot. Such measures suggest that the Germans weren’t exactly thrilled with their situation.

 

[Jack]

Okay guy's, the point of the OP's post was to reflect and honor those lost conducting this mission. "Lest we forget" gentlemen!

 

[Charlie Farley]

Keith,
To say i'm shocked at your ' revisionist ' theories is an understatement.
It's too easy to sit in a chair now, some 60 odd years after, hindsight, my ass!!!
Son, listen.... there was a war going on and i'm not talking about your experience of a ' tea pot ' ' natives are getting restless ' problem in Aden,
Harris was given specific orders from Churchill, what was he do ?
I suppose you , if you were Harris would have launched a website asking for advice & support . yea yea and during a PROPER war, pff!!
The Germans had already decided what was acceptable in a world war with their mass bombing of Coventry & London. If they didn't appreciate the response, well TOO FUCKING BAD.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Pete,

I´m afraid, I don´t see your point.

Unless, of course, killing civilians is a good thing as long as you win in the end. If that´s the logic, then by looking at all the nations beaten by Germany (read: wars won), all the Dutch, Norwegian, French, Belgian, Polish etc. etc. victims were O.K.

BTW: Even if it was your intent, I´m afraid I didn´t take any offence.

Marcus

Sorry Marcus, it was a cheap shot on my part, I apologise.

 

[Stephen Ducker]

Okay guy's, the point of the OP's post was to reflect and honor those lost conducting this mission. "Lest we forget" gentlemen!

Thank you Jack !

 

[Charlie Farley]

And I second that.
My intention in posting the thread originally was purely to highlight what were basically volunteers, went through, and many never came out of.
My Father was in 76 Squadron, the squadron that Guy Gibson, the Sq Leader of the newly formed 617 Dambusters came from. That was entirely my interest.
But of course, there always has to be some ill informed prat to queer the pitch...

 

[Charlie Farley]

Marcus,

Try clearing your in box, once a year.

 

[Charlie Farley]

Marcus,
It's simple. Your relatives voted in to government mass killers, such as little adolf, Himmler, Julius Striecher etc, so in response we employed mass killers like' Bomber' Harris and the USAAF 8th Air Force.
It's simple, we won and now your generations have learnt their lessons.
Simple. Who has the bigger stick...answer in the history books.
It's just like in the school playground. Don't fuck with the big boys.
Have a nice day, as my American cousins would say.
Hey, stop complaining,
After all, I think it started in Poland with your country's decision to set up a lot of grey/green tents...
:lipsrsealed: