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Old 17th March 2018, 05:26 PM   #2761
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

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The Japanese actually won the war in the Pacific, but lets us say we did because it was a harvest moon on September 2, 1945 and the lower revolving spindle pin on crotch fastener got stuck. And that is a fact! Oh my, we were fighting a war in two places at once, and Japan is close to Russia, did they win that one too?
I never said anything about Japan. The US defeated the Japanese NAVY during the war. However, much like in Europe, it was the Chinese who faced by far the brunt of Japanese land military strength. Something like 90% of the Japanese army was committed to the war in China, which had begun in the early 30s. Yet another part of WWII most America, fuck yeah! ignoramuses simply are not aware of.

The Pacific War was, save for naval resources, generally treated as a backwater by both the British and the Americans, simply because the Japanese threat was much less dangerous than the German.
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Old 17th March 2018, 05:34 PM   #2762
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

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What utter bullshit. Liberalism truly is a mental disorder Jeff. I would suggest checking yourself into a hospital very soon.
LOL...sure thing, that's pleasant and fully compliant with the rules of the forum.

Facts are facts. The Germans committed most of their military resources to the Eastern Front. The Soviets defeated the bulk of the German Army and the Luftwaffe, and likely would have done so without our assistance.

Numbers are numbers. They are typically hard for people like you, who believe in fantasies and misconceptions and myths, to accept.

WWII military deaths:

Russian: Military - 8-11 million, Civilian - 6-8 million
China: Military 3-4 million, Civilian 7-8 million
Germany: Military 4-5 million, Civilian 1.5 -3 million
Japan: Military 2-3 million, Civilian 600-800,000
UK: Military 383,000, Civilian 67,000
France: Military 210,000 Civilian 390,000
US: Military 400,000 Civilian 12,000

Pretty scary that you are that ignorant about something as basic as WWII history.
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Old 17th March 2018, 05:38 PM   #2763
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

This is pretty much a consensus among historians at this point, the British and American strategic bombing campaign against Germany industry was a costly failure.

Book review from the Economist -- not some liberal rag. Read it if you'd like to educate yourself some. Ignore it if you'd like to stay ignorant.

A costly, brutal failure - Strategic bombing, 1939-45
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Old 17th March 2018, 05:43 PM   #2764
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

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Where the hell is Nurse Ratched when you need her?
Shit, you can't even get One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest right when playing the name calling game. Nurse Ratchet was the VILLIAN -- who represented stupidity and ignorance and repression.

There are a lot of stupid Americans who simply don't understand the basic facts of WWII. We certainly "won" in the sense we were not invaded, and survived the war as the only major power whose economy was not destroyed.

But we won on the spilled blood of Chinese and Soviets soldiers and civilians. Millions of them.

Continue on with your delusions about history.
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Old 17th March 2018, 06:25 PM   #2765
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

Jeff,

We all know the Russians took the brunt of casualties. No one disputes that. Let’s face it they had a direct front with III Reich. GB had the channel, we had an ocean on both sides and the French surrendered.

I realize that in your world a winner is a loser and vice versa, and that everyone gets a trophy for showing up, but to suggest the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, and the SS would NOT have crushed Russia without “interference” from the Allies is simply ludicrous.

It would have ended just like in the real WWII except that the Nazis would have completed their heavy water experiments and used an FW 200 to drop a nuke on Moscow and Stalingrad.

🤯
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Old 17th March 2018, 06:28 PM   #2766
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

Strike that....they would have used the Horton Bro’s jet engined flying wing🤪
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Old 17th March 2018, 06:59 PM   #2767
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

My bad...I forgot to mention Admiral Carl Dönitz and his Kriegsmarine.
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Old 18th March 2018, 06:29 AM   #2768
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

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It would have ended just like in the real WWII except that the Nazis would have completed their heavy water experiments and used an FW 200 to drop a nuke on Moscow and Stalingrad.

��
No, not even remotely close to happening. The real history of the German experiments into fission are more interesting.

Fission was discovered in Germany in the late 30s. Around 38 or 39 if memory serves. However at that point many of Germany's best scientists had left and the exodus was still continuing. This was an extremely important fact that crippled Germany with respect to fission development.

The Reich realized that there were possibilities of weapons from fission, of course, but pursued in in a very poor fashion. Essentially they ended up with six or seven physicists of note running groups that were independently researching different aspects of the fission project. The projects were housed under different administrative aspects of the Reich over a period of a few years with various heads being appointed. I think ultimately Goering ends up being the figurehead in charge of the fission efforts but he appointed a physicist to lead the fission effort, although there was little leading as the project was distributed and essentially had too many fiefdoms going on.

In mid to late 1942 the fission weapon project was scrapped. It was decided that fission was important, but, that it was important for energy production. And, shortly after that decision the uranium that the Germans had stockpiled for enrichment was re-purposed for high density projectiles. Something like 90% of their raw material was gone in a flash although they continued to bring in ore and attempted to purify oxides at a plant they'd developed.

By late 42 and into 43 there were only around 50 or 60 German physicists working on a distributed and not well connected "fission project". The numbers dwindled as the years went on to the detriment of various aspects of the project. The heavy water plant in Norway was the most successful and well known project (and I don't think Germans built that, they captured it in 40 or 41?) and at the time the plant had the allies worried that Germany was on track for a bomb.

But, Germany was far from being on track for a bomb. They hadn't figured out enrichment and isotope separation and all the other important steps were stuck under individual control around the country. This is in stark contrast to our Manhattan Project, brilliant science as well as a feat of operations management and logistics.

And of course, the Russians ultimately were closest to developing an atomic weapon with US espionage assisting their scientists.

I'm sure I've skimped some details here due to memory but that's the jist of it. There is an excellent history of this I read some years ago. I'll find the title and post.
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Old 18th March 2018, 07:15 AM   #2769
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

I read all the wiki info too Ron.

If we are going into the realm of fantasy as Jeff suggests, then it’s plausible to assume that the Nazis would have been able to concentrate on the bomb instead of having to deal with the Allies.

Germany 1- Russia 0
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Old 18th March 2018, 07:18 AM   #2770
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

The Russians did not have an active atomic weapon program until after the war , so by then it would have been too late😜
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Old 18th March 2018, 07:21 AM   #2771
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

Utilizing mostly captured German scientists.
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Old 18th March 2018, 07:30 AM   #2772
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

The Nazis were way ahead of the Russians ....

NOVA - Official Website | Nazis and the Bomb
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Old 18th March 2018, 07:42 AM   #2773
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

WRT post #2770

Soviet Atomic Program - 1946 | Atomic Heritage Foundation
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Old 18th March 2018, 11:26 PM   #2774
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

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Originally Posted by Scott Calabro View Post
Jeff,

We all know the Russians took the brunt of casualties. No one disputes that. Let’s face it they had a direct front with III Reich. GB had the channel, we had an ocean on both sides and the French surrendered.

I realize that in your world a winner is a loser and vice versa, and that everyone gets a trophy for showing up, but to suggest the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, and the SS would NOT have crushed Russia without “interference” from the Allies is simply ludicrous.

It would have ended just like in the real WWII except that the Nazis would have completed their heavy water experiments and used an FW 200 to drop a nuke on Moscow and Stalingrad.

🤯
Winner is a loser and vice versa? Everyone gets a trophy for showing up? Why are you spouting right wing nonsensisms during a debate -- well, a lesson actually as it is clear you, Randy and Al are woefully ill informed - on WWII history?

What I said above is a historical fact. The Soviet Union was primarily responsible for the defeat of Nazi Germany. It's such an accepted truism it's pretty much the lead of the Wiki article on the Eastern Front:

The Eastern Front was decisive in determining the outcome of the European portion of World War II, eventually serving as the main reason for the defeat of Nazi Germany.[9][10][11]

The Allies never committed enough resources to North Africa, Italy and ultimately France to be more than a distraction. The scale and scope of the battles on the Eastern Front dwarf many times over those on the Western Front.

I fully acknowledge US material aid to the Soviets was important. Was it outcome determinative? Up for debate at best. Certainly early post-war Soviets felt it was. But it was still only bullets and steel and trucks and aluminum. The Soviets beat the Germans with production, manpower, tactics and sheer force of will.

And no, the Germans would not have won the war in 45/46/47 with nuclear weapons. Ron's post is accurate, and has more detail than I remember EXCEPT that it is 100% correct the Germans lacked the raw materials necessary to make sufficient weapons grade uranium, and shifted their efforts in 1942 to using the nuclear program to produce energy. There were not going to be any German nuclear weapons by 45/46/47.

Which leads to another point you appear ignorant of. The conflict on the Easter Front was essentially decided in 1942, and was likely predetermined by supply and logistics. The Germans really needed to knock the Russians out of the war in 41 to have Barbarossa succeed. They were not able to do that -- in fact probably never would because the Soviets were simply not going to negotiate a peace like the Tsar had in 1917.

By the end of 42 with the failure of the siege at Stalingrad, and the Soviets preparing for large scale counteroffensives against Army Group Center, the die was cast. Say no Lend Lease delays the defeat of the Reich by one year? No change in the outcome.

And thank God the Soviets stopped in 1945. Unlike Churchill and Patton and others who had insane ideas about rearming the Wehrmacht and attacking the Soviets, the Soviets wanted no more conflict. Nor did the US and British strategic studies services, who quickly realized how outnumbered and outgunned the Allies were -- and the reason for that was the Russians were always fighting 70-80% of German military strength.

Check out the map here:

Operation Unthinkable - Wikipedia

I call that "Patton dies in a week: the Portrait."

Note also that the Soviets by 1945:

1. Had a huge advantage in tanks, both numerically and in quality. The IS series of tanks, the SU tank destroyers and assault guns, and even the T34/85 were all significantly better than the common types of American and British tanks and and tank destroyers. Most Allied tanks still had short barrel 75 or 76 mm guns, and barely adequate armor. the American 90mm gun and the M26 Pershing were just arriving. The Soviets had thousands of 85 mm and 100mm and 122mm tank weapons mounted on tanks and assault guns.

2. the Soviets had a huge advantage in artillery and rocket artillery.

3. The Soviets were the equal of the USAF and Royal AF when it came to tactical ground support and air superiority at low and medium altitudes.

4. The Americans and Brits certainly had the advantage with strategic bombers and high altitude fighters, none of which mattered as strategic bombing deep into Russia was not going to feasible and even more likely to fail than the US/Brit campaign against Germany.

Anything else you'd like to learn?
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Old 18th March 2018, 11:29 PM   #2775
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

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I read all the wiki info too Ron.

If we are going into the realm of fantasy as Jeff suggests, then it’s plausible to assume that the Nazis would have been able to concentrate on the bomb instead of having to deal with the Allies.

Germany 1- Russia 0
Uh, fail. What fantasy am I suggesting? That the Soviets and the Eastern Front were primarily responsible for the defeat of Nazi Germany? That's simply a historical fact.

No, it's not plausible to assume that because we know in 1942 the Germans realized they were not going to be able to make bombs any time soon - and certainly not before 46 or 47 when the Russian would have without question overrun Germany even if the Allies had not provided material or not started the Western Front.

The US, which committed far more resources to bomb making and development -- far more -- was only able to produce two weapons in 1945 and nine in 1946. Even the US was only able to ramp up bomb production in the late 40s. The Germans would never have been able to manufacture enough weapons to change the course of the war and by 1945 had no weapons system that would have been able to deliver those weapons to deep inside Russia.
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Old 18th March 2018, 11:33 PM   #2776
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

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My bad...I forgot to mention Admiral Carl Dönitz and his Kriegsmarine.
Well, it was actually Erich Raeder for most of the war but you didn't know that.

I forget though, exactly how would the Kriegsmarine have been a threat to the Soviets? After the Battle of the Barents Sea in 1943, Hitler essentially mothballed the surface navy as ineffective. Most of the U-boats were in the Atlantic trying to stop convoys to Britain.

I'm lost on this one, probably because it is a non-sequitur.

P.S. It's Karl Donitz.
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Old 19th March 2018, 08:53 AM   #2777
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

I’m honored that you have taken so much of your free time to research a rebuttal to little old me Jeff. 🤯

Still, if it was solely a conflict between the Nazis and the Russians, as you suggested, I hold my view because historical facts don’t matter in your hypothetical “view”. Of course, you are free to hold yours. Let’s agree to disagree.

Now please don’t forget to go to the medicine cabinet and take your Xanax.

Cheers!
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:07 AM   #2778
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

I never stated or even suggested that.

I simply said what is a basic historical truth: the Eastern front was decisive in terms of defeating Germany in the European theater, and the Soviets were primarily responsible for that.
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:12 AM   #2779
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

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I never stated or even suggested that.

I simply said what is a basic historical truth: the Eastern front was decisive in terms of defeating Germany in the European theater, and the Soviets were primarily responsible for that.
Sure you did. Go back and re read your post 2753 with your glasses on.
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:24 AM   #2780
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Re: GT40s.com Paddock Politics Thread

The one where I said the Soviets were responsible for defeating Hitler with significant US material assistance?

Sure looks like you need to take off your red, white and blue glasses.
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