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Old 7th October 2017, 04:15 PM   #81
Larry L.
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Re: Guns in America

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Originally Posted by Rod Brace View Post
The second ammendment's intent wasn't hunting. Shall not infringe says it all.

...at least for anyone who comprehends English.
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Old 7th October 2017, 06:15 PM   #82
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Re: Guns in America

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Originally Posted by Larry L. View Post
^^^ Elitist crapola.

'Ever noticed, no matter what the topic, you consistently label as "less educated" anyone who holds an opinion opposing yours...when, in reality, 'less indoctrinated' would be far more accurate?

Your implied position that individuals with higher educations are somehow inherently wiser than those without (thus, their opinions more valid) is at odds with that of Ralph Waldo Emerson who said: "We are shut up in schools and college recitation rooms for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bellyful of words and do not know a thing."

If indeed, "gun ownership decreases with increases in education level", that very fact alone would prove Emerson right.



Well, statistical analysis shows that Texas has roughly the same amount of gun deaths as CA in 2016, but with 12,000,000 less people. And CA has the 9th least amount of gun deaths per 100,000 people. There's a reason why CA is the most populous state. It's the best.

At the opposite end, states with the most gun deaths per 100,000 are Mississippi, Wyoming, Louisiana, Alabama and Alaska. Hmmmmm.

BTW, you don't have to be a psychiatrist to diagnose the Emerson quote as a classic case of over-compensation. But statistics don't lie. As a group, guns owners are less educated.

And the next time you have to see a doctor or a lawyer for a problem, I'd definitely throw that Emerson quote in their faces. I'm sure they'll still do a good job for you.
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Old 7th October 2017, 08:37 PM   #83
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Re: Guns in America

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...you don't have to be a psychiatrist to diagnose the Emerson quote as a classic case of over-compensation.
...or to dismiss 'out of hand' the inherent truth contained therein regardless.


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Originally Posted by RodKnock View Post
But statistics don't lie.


As John McEnroe used to say, you CANNOT be serious!!!!!!!!!!!

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
- British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli (supposedly)

Gun stats rank amongst the most easily manipulated/corrupted. (Garbage in...garbage out.)
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Old 7th October 2017, 10:38 PM   #84
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Re: Guns in America

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Originally Posted by Larry L. View Post
...or to dismiss 'out of hand' the inherent truth contained therein regardless.






As John McEnroe used to say, you CANNOT be serious!!!!!!!!!!!

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
- British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli (supposedly)

Gun stats rank amongst the most easily manipulated/corrupted. (Garbage in...garbage out.)
Yes, I dismiss the quote "out of hand." Unless you're saying education is not necessary or useless. The Emerson quote is nonsense in this context, because most parents want to send their kids to college. Just because you find a quote using Google that you think supports your position is beyond hilarious to me. And distracts from the fact that gun owners are less educated as a group.

As for "gun stats" bing manipulated, do you disagree with the numerator or denominator? Do you disagree with the amount of gun deaths per state or the population figures per state. Geez, man, someone along the way in your life made you drink the Kool Aid and you've lost all objectivity.
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Old 8th October 2017, 12:15 AM   #85
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Re: Guns in America

Ahh, so gun owners are "less educated". The obvious implication here is that if one is less educated they must be stupid or somehow less intelligent and, of course, only stupid people would own a gun. I certainly have more education than you and likely more than anyone on this board and I would never be so arrogant to assume that makes me smarter than anyone. And yes, I own a gun. So there.

Oh, and CA is bleeding a lot of it's population to TX. In fact, it's one of the few states that is steadily losing population. Remarkable when you consider it has fantastic weather and is probably the prettiest state overall in the country. Wonder why that is.....
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Old 8th October 2017, 10:01 AM   #86
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Re: Guns in America

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Originally Posted by jammin man View Post
Ahh, so gun owners are "less educated". The obvious implication here is that if one is less educated they must be stupid or somehow less intelligent and, of course, only stupid people would own a gun. I certainly have more education than you and likely more than anyone on this board and I would never be so arrogant to assume that makes me smarter than anyone. And yes, I own a gun. So there.

Oh, and CA is bleeding a lot of it's population to TX. In fact, it's one of the few states that is steadily losing population. Remarkable when you consider it has fantastic weather and is probably the prettiest state overall in the country. Wonder why that is.....
Geez Steve, I'm amazed you're able to put together a coherent sentence being a gun owner. Having a couple of guns myself, I have someone else put my feeble thoughts on this forum. I guess the more guns you have, the more ignorant you are. Ahhh what would we do without liberal guidance.
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Old 8th October 2017, 10:29 AM   #87
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Re: Guns in America

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Do you disagree with the amount of gun deaths per state or the population figures per state. .
Well, gee, Rod...I dunno. I mean...I don't hold a PHD in anything...so how could my opinion be correct or matter anyway? I duz haz a culluge deegree...but, it izzunt in nuklur fissuks or nuthun lik dat...'n' mi eye kew iz ooonlee 140-sumptun...(or izzit 14 sumptin...I duzzunt ramembur)...so...


This excerpt from an article by Kevin D. Williamson (in the National Review) illustrates the kind of gun stat 'jury rigging' to which I previously referred (the red highlights are mine):

"Take this, for example, from ThinkProgress’s Zack Beauchamp, with whom I had a discussion about the issue on Wednesday evening: “STUDY: States with loose gun laws have higher rates of gun violence. The claim sounds like an entirely straightforward one. In English, it means that there is more gun violence in states with relatively liberal gun laws. But that is of course not at all what it means. In order to reach that conclusion, the authors of the study were obliged to insert a supplementary measure of “gun violence,” that being the “crime-gun export rate.” If a gun legally sold in Indiana ends up someday being used in a crime in Chicago, then that is counted as an incidence of gun violence in Indiana, even though it is no such thing. This is a fairly nakedly political attempt to manipulate statistics in such a way as to attribute some portion of Chicago’s horrific crime epidemic to peaceable neighboring communities. And even if we took the “gun-crime export rate” to be a meaningful metric, we would need to consider the fact that it accounts only for those guns sold legally. Of course states that do not have many legal gun sales do not generate a lot of records for “gun-crime exports.” It is probable that lots of guns sold in Illinois end up being used in crimes in Indiana; the difference is, those guns are sold on the black market, and so do not show up in the records. The choice of metrics is just another way to put a thumb on the scale."




As regards population figures per state or any specific census numbers in general, there's plenty to indicate those figures are messed with as well in areas where the gubmunt WANTS 'em manipulated. Take this example for instance:

"The (Census) Bureau concedes the new approach is almost guaranteed to produce lower uninsured numbers—at exactly the time that President Obama wants lower uninsured numbers."
"...Census Bureau Director John H. Thompson...“I can assure you, I have had no discussions of this with the White House or with anyone else in the administration.”

Uh huh...and you can keep your DOCTOR, too...


https://www.forbes.com/sites/merrill.../#2a369b95838d

Last edited by Larry L.; 8th October 2017 at 10:53 AM. Reason: link was screwed up
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Old 8th October 2017, 12:37 PM   #88
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Re: Guns in America

Rod................civil?

"Now I understand why, that as a group, gun owners are less-educated. And conversely, gun ownership decreases with increases in education level."

I could say that liberal's, are as a group, a bunch of F'ing idiots. And believe me I well know the difference between California and Texas. That's why I moved to Texas to get away from the F'ing idiots................but I won't.................... in the spirt of decorum.

Come on, TRY and provide some intelligent incite. Offer information that has the potential to help someone who isn't so frozen in their position that nothing will change their minds......think.

Debate, don't insult. Be.......................civil

Oh, someone else asked about the effective range of a AR15. I have put hundreds of rounds through a man sized target at 600 yards with a standard open sites M16 which is the same thing as a AR15 with the exception of select fire. Granted I had 20ish year old eyes but I didn't find it particularly difficult. I also have a Remington Model 700 BDL (with a big ass scope) in .223 that I can shoot ground squirrels in the head at 500 yards with.

That man also had a .308 caliber rifle. It would not be difficult to hit man sized targets with a scope well beyond 600 yards. I 've seen dear killed at that range with 30 caliber class rifles. Of course moving targets increase the difficulty of any long shoot.

There was nothing technically difficult or expert about what this man did in Las Vegas. He just opened up above a huge group of people. I am surprised that he didn't kill a lot more. Had he had more time and took aimed shots he certainly would have. Instead he sprayed the whole parking lot and missed a lot as would be expected.

It may just have been a bit of silver lining that he went auto happy and didn't carefully aim. At least this is what the videos sounded like he did. Someone who has been trained to shoot a automatic weapon would have done much worse damage. The details of how are not appropriate on this forum IMHO.

You can thank the cops that he didn't do much worse. Can you imagine busting into a room that had a guy in it with a machine gun that had just shot a full auto burst through the door you need to go thought and hit a security guard? Those cops knew that their vests would have almost no effect against rife ammunition, yet in they went.

That's beyond brave.....God bless our police. Those cops deserve a lot of thanks.

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Old 8th October 2017, 04:49 PM   #89
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Re: Guns in America

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Originally Posted by Howard Jones View Post

I could say that liberal's, are as a group, a bunch of F'ing idiots. And believe me I well know the difference between California and Texas. That's why I moved to Texas to get away from the F'ing idiots................but I won't.................... in the spirt of decorum.
Howard,

With the greatest of respect you have said it, Rumpole of the Bailey used to do it slightly differently to the American way, but the result was the same.

Vinny: Uh... Everything that guy just said is bullshit... Thank you.
[...]
Judge: The jury will kindly disregard the defendant's entire opening statement, with the exception of "Thank you."
— My Cousin Vinny

A kind of Courtroom Antic where the lawyer asks or says something totally inappropriate to the rules of the courtroom in order to get the jury to think of something a certain way.

As a liberal do I now take great offense, probably not I have had worse insults on this forum, and occasionally deservedly.

Quote:
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Come on, TRY and provide some intelligent incite. Offer information that has the potential to help someone who isn't so frozen in their position that nothing will change their minds......think.
No country in the world has more guns per capita, with some 300 million civilian firearms now in circulation, or nearly one for every adult.

Experts from the Harvard School of Public Health, using data from 26 developed countries, have shown that wherever there are more firearms, there are more homicides. In the case of the United States, exponentially more: the American murder rate is roughly 15 times that of other wealthy countries, which have much tougher laws controlling private ownership of guns.

There’s another important difference between this country and the rest of the world. Other nations have suffered similar rampages, but they have reacted quickly to impose new and stricter gun laws.

Australia is an excellent example. In 1996, a “pathetic social misfit,” as a judge described the lone gunman, killed 35 people with a spray of bullets from semiautomatic weapons. Within weeks, the Australian government was working on gun reform laws that banned assault weapons and shotguns, tightened licensing and financed gun amnesty and buyback programs.

At the time, the prime minister, John Howard, said, “We do not want the American disease imported into Australia.” The laws have worked. The American Journal of Law and Economics reported in 2010 that firearm homicides in Australia dropped 59 percent between 1995 and 2006. In the 18 years before the 1996 laws, there were 13 gun massacres resulting in 102 deaths, according to Harvard researchers, with none in that category since.

Similarly, after 16 children and their teacher were killed by a gunman in Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, the British government banned all private ownership of automatic weapons and virtually all handguns. Those changes gave Britain some of the toughest gun control laws in the developed world on top of already strict rules. Hours of exhaustive paperwork are required if anyone wants to own even a shotgun or rifle for hunting. The result has been a decline in murders involving firearms.

In Japan, which has very strict laws, only 11 people were killed with guns in 2008, compared with 12,000 deaths by firearms that year in the United States — a huge disparity even accounting for the difference in population.

I think a really important thing is in Australia a Liberal–National Coalition, a political alliance of centre-right liberal conservative parties bought in gun control laws, in the UK all political parties worked together to ban hand guns and bring in tougher gun laws.

I am not American,you have the right to tell me what happens in your country is your own business, but I do care.

Gun control that was implemented worked in Australia worked in Japan worked in the UK it won't be easy to achieve the same in the USA but are you really that different? If the only response is to quote the 2nd amendment verbatim and sacrosanct, then in my opinion you will never find a solution.
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Old 8th October 2017, 06:21 PM   #90
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Re: Guns in America

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Originally Posted by jammin man View Post
Ahh, so gun owners are "less educated". The obvious implication here is that if one is less educated they must be stupid or somehow less intelligent and, of course, only stupid people would own a gun. I certainly have more education than you and likely more than anyone on this board and I would never be so arrogant to assume that makes me smarter than anyone. And yes, I own a gun. So there.

Oh, and CA is bleeding a lot of it's population to TX. In fact, it's one of the few states that is steadily losing population. Remarkable when you consider it has fantastic weather and is probably the prettiest state overall in the country. Wonder why that is.....
Yes, as a group, gun owners are less educated. That's what the statistics show. I wasn't aware that I was addressing just you, Steve. There are always outliers in any statistical analysis. And I never said or implied anyone is or was stupid. Less educated doesn't equal stupid. I don't know why gun owners AS A GROUP, are less educated, but I wonder why that is.

According to the Sacramento Bee, using census data, CA is losing its poor to TX and other states. There's obviously an affordability issue, since the cost of living is very high here. And yes, it's beautiful here. And not just because we overwhelmingly support stricter gun control.

California exports its poor to Texas, other states, while wealthier people move in | The Sacramento Bee

Howard, on one hand, you say not to insult, and then OTOH, you call CA liberals "F'ING idiots."

I think Nick says it beautifully, more guns equals more death.
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Old 8th October 2017, 08:56 PM   #91
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Re: Guns in America

Rod, I didn't say you were addressing just me, I did say you're implying gun owners are stupid ("I wonder why that is" is exactly that). The context that you're bringing it up in could have no other purpose. If you're not consciously aware of that, then I'm making you aware now. The Americans who hunt for their food on a regular basis are generally not college graduates but they all own multiple guns. Many of my patients (some of whom are highly successful but most of whom are very poor) feed their families through the winter on what they hunt and fish for successfully and what they grow and can. They also cut their own wood to fuel the wood stove that heats their home so I would bet a higher percentage of ax owners have less education.

Nick, I'm aware of all the statistics and examples of gun laws in other countries etc. etc., as I'm sure Howard and others are as well. The most significant thing you said was "I am not American,you have the right to tell me what happens in your country is your own business". Most Americans and nearly all gun owners not only feel that way but would likely say it to your face. America is "different" and I mean that in both a good and bad way. We have great diversity, which is a strength but also leads to more conflict (a weakness). The mass killings have gone up dramatically in recent years but the homicide rate (homicides per 100,000) has trended downwards for decades and the rate in 2014 was the lowest since the early 60s. There has been a slight uptick in the last 2 years, but the rate is still very low by historical standards.

So, why the increase in mass killings? Why the slight uptick in 2015 and 2016? I haven't heard any cogent discussions on this let alone conclusions. Most wrap too much emotion in their arguments with a heavy dose of politics. I think part of the answer to the 2nd question is the American opioid epidemic and increase in local gang violence in several large cities which has a dramatic impact. The answer to the former escapes me but is likely multifactorial and includes: the breakdown of community, especially in smaller towns, poorly treated/recognized mental health disease, the disintegration of family support (which in turn exacerbates mental health issues), and the rise in poor coping mechanisms.

So
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Old 8th October 2017, 09:21 PM   #92
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Re: Guns in America

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Can you imagine busting into a room that had a guy in it with a machine gun that had just shot a full auto burst through the door you need to go thought and hit a security guard? Those cops knew that their vests would have almost no effect against rife ammunition, yet in they went.

...they ALSO could have been facing an explosive-rigged booby trap set to go off if a forced entry had occurred.


'Same scenario vis-a-vis his various HOMES or his car(s).
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Old 8th October 2017, 09:42 PM   #93
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Re: Guns in America

Steve, that might explain in and around the area where you live and work, but the states with the most gun deaths are generally in the Southeastern and Southwestern portion of the US, plus Alaska and Wyoming. An most people associate gang violence in big cities such as Chicago, but Illinois (NY, NJ, etc. too) overall has the 12th least amount of gun deaths by state. So are these citizens hunting food or humans?

And yes, the US is different from other countries, but we have a BIG gun death problem, and doing nothing is always what we do here in the US. Maybe in some ways, following the lead of other countries, we may actually benefit and learn something. Now, I sincerely doubt it, because the NRA won't allow it, but it would nice to have universal background checks w/o loopholes and NOT having felons, people on the "no fly" list or anyone taking medications under the guidance of a psychiatrist be able to buy guns.
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Old 8th October 2017, 11:35 PM   #94
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Re: Guns in America

^^^ I see some above are STILL insisting more GUN CONTROL laws be adopted here in the USA.

The USA is NOT Australia...or Japan...or the U.K. Here in the U.S., our citizens have the R-I-G-H-T to own and carry firearms. PERIOD. Our constitution PROHIBITS the government from passing the very laws many of y'all are, by implication, insisting we OUGHT to adopt...and the vast majority of the "gun control laws" we currently DO have on the books are 100% UNconstitutional as it is! (How the devil any court ANYWHERE along the U.S. judicial chain could, thru "i-n-t-e-r-p-r-e-t-a-t-i-o-n", find ANY OF THEM constitutional is totally beyond me. They clearly AREN'T.)

So, bearing the above in mind...(sigh)...one MORE time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry L. View Post
Okaaaay...here's my challenge to all the anti-gun, "we need more GUN laws" folks :

Write out - word-for-word - your specific recommendation for a gun law that would, if enacted, end all gun crime...a law that would put so much fear in the hearts of terrorists, gangbangers, dope dealers, and LOONS (and/or whatever other additional brand of criminals you'd care to mention) that they wouldn't even dare THINK ABOUT violating it - let alone DO so (like they've violated every other gun law that's been passed to date). There has to be a way to word such a law 'cause y'all keep INSISTING "more gun laws" will stop gun crime...right?

If you CAN'T come up with the wording for the aforementioned law - then just ADMIT that no single law or combination of laws HAS EVER - AND WILL NEVER - change the behavior of criminals/loons and quit your sanctimonious insistence that "more GUN laws" are the answer to gun crime. DECADES OF PASSING MORE AND MORE "GUN LAWS" has proven conclusively it's just a 'feel good' exercise...and that the only thing passing YET ANOTHER "gun law" does is make it possible for some full-of-themselves politicians to puff out their chests and proclaim to the world they DID SOMETHING about gun crime...it does NOT change the behavior of criminals.

What worthwhile purpose is served by further restricting/disarming law-abiding people (unconstitutionally 99% of the time, BTW)? THEY aren't the problem. THEY obey the country's laws. Why screw with them??? What does that accomplish???
To this day, NO ONE to whom I've issued that challenge (either face-to-face or on the 'net) has been able to meet it. Nobody. And there's a darned good REASON for that - IT CANNOT BE DONE. So, what SENSE is there in passing more gun laws that everybody and his cousin already KNOWS won't work any better than the 50 bazillion gun laws we already HAVE???

Those who keep calling for more gun laws are, at best, just whistling past the graveyard.

Last edited by Larry L.; 8th October 2017 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 8th October 2017, 11:36 PM   #95
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Re: Guns in America

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Old 8th October 2017, 11:56 PM   #96
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Re: Guns in America

Oh...........my............goodness.

Never MIND my goodness...let's admire HERS! There's much more OF it!

Heaven help anyone who tries to violate HER...gun rights.

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Old 9th October 2017, 04:08 AM   #97
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Re: Guns in America

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^^^ I see some above are STILL insisting more GUN CONTROL laws be adopted here in the USA.

The USA is NOT Australia...or Japan...or the U.K. Here in the U.S., our citizens have the R-I-G-H-T to own and carry firearms. PERIOD. Our constitution PROHIBITS the government from passing the very laws many of y'all are, by implication, insisting we OUGHT to adopt...and the vast majority of the "gun control laws" we currently DO have on the books are 100% UNconstitutional as it is! (How the devil any court ANYWHERE along the U.S. judicial chain could, thru "i-n-t-e-r-p-r-e-t-a-t-i-o-n", find ANY OF THEM constitutional is totally beyond me. They clearly AREN'T.)

So, bearing the above in mind...(sigh)...one MORE time:



To this day, NO ONE to whom I've issued that challenge (either face-to-face or on the 'net) has been able to meet it. Nobody. And there's a darned good REASON for that - IT CANNOT BE DONE. So, what SENSE is there in passing more gun laws that everybody and his cousin already KNOWS won't work any better than the 50 bazillion gun laws we already HAVE???

Those who keep calling for more gun laws are, at best, just whistling past the graveyard.
Actually Larry the problem is not the inability to write a law that will work, it is the inability to write a law involving gun control that you and others would accept, because as you say any law you would immediately declare unconstitutional, and there would be a cultural lack of willingness in the USA to uphold and implement any such law.

An example I have seen

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms when serving in the Militia shall not be infringed.”


I will ask you a couple of direct questions, why it that you would not contemplate any gun control laws because in your opinion they don’t stop those who want to get hold of guns doing so, but you don’t appear to apply the same rule to other laws that have the same result, drug laws for example?

Why is it that some on here have expressed the opinion, (I may be doing you an injustice he as if my memory is correct you were one of them) that many in the US should not be allowed to vote as they do not have the required intellect, but you are OK with those same people wondering around with guns if they desire to.

It has been said these debates are useless as it will not change anyone opinion, but people’s opinions do change especially those that have been directly affected by mass shootings. I wonder what the parents, sisters, brothers, aunties, uncles, grandparents and friends of mass shooting victims response would be, if you were to stand in front of them and say “I am very sorry for your tragic loss, but still believe we have the right to bear arms and any law that bought in to attempt to prevent your loved ones from being murdered is unconstitutional".

We used to have the right to carry guns in the UK’ as I have said we changed that law after Dunblane and it worked. I know in the past you have stated you tend not to read anything that opposes your point of view but if you do anything please read the following.


In the United Kingdom, access by the general public to firearms is tightly controlled by law which is much more restrictive than the minimum rules required by the European Firearms Directive, but it is less restrictive in Northern Ireland. The country has one of the lowest rates of gun homicides in the world. There were 0.05 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in the five years to 2011 (15 to 38 people per annum). Gun homicides accounted for 2.4% of all homicides in the year 2011 There is some concern over the availability of illegal firearms. Office for National Statistics figures show 7,866 offences in which firearms were involved in the year ending March 2015, 2% up on the previous year and the first increase in 10 years. Of these 19 were fatalities, 10 fewer than the previous year and the lowest since records began in 1969. There was a further rise to 8,399 in the year ending March 2016, the highest number in four years, but significantly lower than the all-time high of 24,094 in 2003/04. Twenty-six resulted in fatal injuries.

Members of the public may own sporting rifles and shotguns, subject to licensing, but handguns were effectively banned after the Dunblane school massacre in 1996 with the exception of Northern Ireland. Dunblane was the UK's first and only school shooting. There has been one spree killing since Dunblane, in June 2010 involving a legally owned shotgun.
Police in the United Kingdom (aside from Northern Ireland) are not routinely armed. Fatal shootings of police are extremely rare; there were three in England and Wales in the eleven-year period from 2000/01 to 2010/11. Armed response units are available to deal with incidents, and as of the 31 March 2017 there were 6,278 armed officers serving in territorial police forces in England and Wales.

I count myself so lucky I live in the UK, if we had your 2nd amendment I am confident being a democracy it would have been changed to allow the above to take place and work. I would much rather be in the UK with our gun laws whistling past our graveyards, than in the US without enforced gun control, with the increasing odds I would be turning into the graveyard visiting someone who was a victim of a gun attack.

Talking to a very right wing friend and work colleague about US guns this morning, turned out he used to regularly go to a shooting club and owned amongst other guns a Smith & Wesson hand gun. He was very upset at giving it up when the new laws following Dunblane came in, now seeing what has happened over the same time in the US he is glad he did.

In summary it is hard to keep track on what your argument is, it was in the past you have to be able to carry arms to defend yourself. Many carried arms in Las Vegas what good did that do. It is that gun control does not work as the bad guys can get hold of guns it they want to. If so way have any laws where this is the same, drug laws for example. It is that gun control laws are unconstitutional so it appears even if they did work as in the UK it would be unconstitutional to bring them in...... REALLY!!!!


However, I am done now, no more I can say, and I don’t like the person US gun problems is turning me into, ie angry, depressed, like I suspect the majority in the UK shouting at their TV's in ever increasing incredulity whenever your pro gun spokespeople debate the subject on our TV's. Worst of all, almost to the point of wishing that one day someone is standing in front of you asking how do you feel about the right to bear arms now one of your loved ones has been murdered by a citizen who took up that right because it would be unconstitutional to try and stop it happening.
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Old 9th October 2017, 05:06 AM   #98
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Re: Guns in America

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Originally Posted by jammin man View Post

Nick, I'm aware of all the statistics and examples of gun laws in other countries etc. etc., as I'm sure Howard and others are as well. The most significant thing you said was "I am not American,you have the right to tell me what happens in your country is your own business". Most Americans and nearly all gun owners not only feel that way but would likely say it to your face.
Valid point, actually debating face to face is far preferable to doing it as a keyboad warrior and something I would welcome as long as they left their guns at home. I do have a tendency to fight other peoples battles but I love you all, in a purely platonic manly way . In my defense it does not appear to stop them telling us and other countries we need more guns, although apparently it was our fault the 2nd amendment was written in the first place

I take my leave and wish you the best of luck whichever path you choose.
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Old 9th October 2017, 07:05 AM   #99
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Re: Guns in America

The voice of reason.
Thanks Nick.
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Old 9th October 2017, 09:11 AM   #100
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Re: Guns in America

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Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
Actually Larry the problem is not the inability to write a law that will work...
Really?! Then accept my challenge write it down! Lemme SEE IT. Talk is cheap as they say. You know darned well no such law can be written. IT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

We have a little gem of an anti-gun law over here called the "gun-FREE zone" law...wherein guns are totally BANNED in designated areas (if BANNING guns is not an "infringement" on the right to keep and bear - I'd like to know what IS). Guess where 95% of all LOONS commit their mass shootings over here? Yeeeew guessed 'er, Chester - "gun-FREE zones". Why? Because loons may be CRAZY, but they're not stupid. They know there's a 99.9% probability nobody ELSE there will armed and thereby be able to provide armed resistance. They ALSO know the police will arrive too late to stop them.

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Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
...because as you say any law you would immediately declare unconstitutional, and there would be a cultural lack of willingness in the USA to uphold and implement any such law.
Correct...if it "infringes" on the right of law-abiding people to "keep and bear". We wouldn't uphold it because it violates the constitution. (Additionally, the constitution says any unconstitutional law is "void upon signing"...at least, that's what's SUPPOSED TO BE the case...)


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Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
An example I have seen

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms when serving in the Militia (!!!) shall not be infringed.”
Oh, NICE TRY, Grasshopper!!!!!!!! That's N-O-T what the 2nd Amend says and you KNOW IT!! It SAYS: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of >THE PEOPLE< (NOT the right of MILITIA MEMEBERS!!!) to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." BIGGGGG DIFFERENCE in meaning, yes? YES.

BTW, our Supreme Court laid that "militia" straw man in its grave a few years back...just so you know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
...why it that you would not contemplate any gun control laws because in your opinion they don’t stop those who want to get hold of guns doing so, but you don’t appear to apply the same rule to other laws that have the same result, drug laws for example?
Short answer: Because the constitution DOES NOT SAY, "...congress shall pass NO LAW INFRINGING on the "right"(?!) of the people to take dope".


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Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
Why is it that some on here have expressed the opinion...that many in the US should not be allowed to vote as they do not have the required intellect, but you are OK with those same people wondering around with guns if they desire to.

Short answer: the right to vote IS subject to legal restrictions/qualifications (time at present residence, citizenship, CRIMINAL status/history [felons SUPPOSEDLY can't vote], age, blah, blah, blah)...whereas the right of the people to keep and bear arms SUPPOSEDLY is absolute (unless it's removed by "due process" as a consequence of being convicted of a serious crime).

(Now watch. SOMEBODY is going to nitpick my use of the word "absolute"...even though "no law INFRINGING" IS as "absolute" as one can get!)


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Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
It has been said these debates are useless as it will not change anyone opinion, but people’s opinions do change especially those that have been directly affected by mass shootings. I wonder what the parents, sisters, brothers, aunties, uncles, grandparents and friends of mass shooting victims response would be, if you were to stand in front of them and say “I am very sorry for your tragic loss, but still believe we have the right to bear arms and any law that bought in to attempt to prevent your loved ones from being murdered is unconstitutional".
Their response would VERY likely be: "I wish to h--- someone had blown that %*^%#@! away before he had a chance to fire the 1st round." I GUARANTEE YOU they would NOT say, "Geee. I wish we had adopted three or four hundred more GUN CONTROL LAWS earlier. THEY would have prevented this."

Gimme a break...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
We used to have the right to carry guns in the UK’ as I have said we changed that law after Dunblane and it worked.
Swell. 'Happy it worked for you. Seriously.

'Sorry, Nick, I tried...truly...I DID. But I just couldn't wade thru all those gun stats. Knowing as I do how manipulated they are over here, I've grown to just ignore them 'in toto' (or 'en toto' if you prefer). You know the old adage; "There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." A former PM of yours (Disraeli) said that, you know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
I count myself so lucky I live in the UK...
...as you SHOULD. It's a great country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
...if we had your 2nd amendment I am confident being a democracy it would have been changed to allow the above to take place and work.

In the U.K. - that's not at all unlikely. Over HERE? NO WAY, JOSE.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
...Talking to a very right wing friend and work colleague about US guns this morning, turned out he used to regularly go to a shooting club and owned a Smith & Wesson hand gun. He was very upset at giving it up when the new laws following Dunblane came in, now seeing what has happened over the same time in the US he is glad he did.

Uh huh. Well, good for him. Let's hope he never finds himself in a position wherein he wishes he HAD that puppy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
...In summary it is hard to keep track on what your argument is, it was in the past you have to be able to carry arms to defend yourself.
LOLOLOLOLOL! "In the PAST"...?! Do you watch the news at ALL, Nick?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
...Many carried arms in Las Vegas what good did that do.
Uh...Nick? 'Sorry to shoot holes in your narrative (no pun intended)...but, guns WERE NOT ALLOWED at that venue.

Now, that said, there's no question in my mind that even if hand guns (or even rifles for that matter...but, PARTICULARLY hand guns) had been permitted, they would not have been effective against the assassin in that particular circumstance with the assassin located where he was...especially at night...with no 'night vision' equipment.

No one whose brain functions normally will EVER opine that carrying a handgun will save one's butt in EVERY SITUATION wherein one may find himself. NEITHER will the aforementioned person opine that, because guns don't guarantee one's safety IN ALL situations, we may as well BAN 'EM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
...It is that gun control does not work as the bad guys can get hold of guns it they want to. If so way have any laws where this is the same, drug laws for example. It is that gun control laws are unconstitutional so it appears even if they did work as in the UK it would be unconstitutional to bring them in...... REALLY!!!!
...I'm still working on deciphering what you're trying to get at there. But, I already addressed the drug laws vs. gun laws argument.

(Edit: ^^^I finally was able to thin the fog re: the "gun laws that work" thing. That gets right back to my challenge. Successfully address that and we'll talk!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Brough View Post
...almost to the point of wishing that one day someone is standing in front of you asking how do you feel about the right to bear arms now one of your loved ones has been murdered by a citizen who took up that right because it would be unconstitutional to try and stop it happening.
My reply would be identical to the one I posted above: "I wish to h--- someone had blown that %*^%#@! away before he had a chance to fire the 1st round." OR, assuming said loved one(s) had not been 'carrying' at the time, my reply would likely be: "I wish they'd have been carrying."



Last edited by Larry L.; 9th October 2017 at 09:56 AM.
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