Why was the 917 so revolutionary?

[John]

Note: I’m specifically taking about the 1970 Le mans winner version of the 917.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the car to death; it seems to have some strange energy about it. But, I always hear things like the design of the car was a turning point, or that it was revolutionary for the time. But how so? The 917 doesn't really have anything that special about it. I would even go as far to say that it was made using older technology when it was new! You really can’t say that it was a downforce car; it didn’t have fancy wings, ground effects or even fans (chaparral). It had a tube chassis when monocoques were about, and it only made 580hp. It seems the only thing special about the car is that it won le mans for Porsche. Is there something I’m missing?

[John Killgore]

917s: Look pretty "advanced" to me at the time. Especially when one was driving a Ford Falcon......

[John]

well, I don't think its fair to compare a full blown race car to a street car. How about comparing it to a Chaparral 2E from 4 years earlier?

[Sandy]

Looks hot, light, crazy fast, and most importantly the package worked (or got working). Took how many victories in it's hey day... A lot. The car, the team (engineering/ race support) and the drivers did a tremendous job to make the car a winner. The motor was a work of art as well, worked well to bring many wins. Chassis made of alloy, many advanced materials used in the engine, etc. Someone with a Porsche background could likely quantify it more. One thing that always amazed me about the car is watching it in races just walk over most cars of the era (If you can find some of the early races at Daytona with JWA Gulf team you can see what I'm talking about).

Look at the Cobra, a simple frame with a good motor, light, and some crazy Texan spanking many a red horsed cars, again, no engineering marvel, but the cars were worked into winners.


BTW I'll take the 917 over the Cobra :-)

Sandy

[John Killgore]

COBRAS: Are numerous (available on 427 Cobra Country--Ford AC Cobra replica manufacturers SUPER-SITE)...

[Dalton]

John, are you kidding??
The 917 is a race car icon because it was so fast.
These were the fastest series production cars ever made. The chassis and engine worked correctly from the start, while early handling difficulties (due to aerodynamics only) were permanently corrected by input from John Wyer who changed the car bodywork to the long-tail version.
The engine (4907 cc) produced 600 bhp, and was an air-cooled 12 cylinder. This was revolutionary. Enzo Ferrari, when he heard details of the cars, could not believe that you could make an engine of this capacity and power with air cooling.
The space frame, which you think sounds old-fashioned, weighed between 37 and 47 kg. The whole car weighed 827 kg. This power and weight allowed the long-tail version of the car to go from 0 to 100 km/hr in less than 2.5 seconds, with a top speed exceeding 394 km/hr. This was the start of the seventies, remember!
Later, when the cars were so dominating, the rules were changed. Then the turbo-ed 917/30's were developed. How does 1100 bhp sound? Over 1500bhp with the engine in qualifying tune for the 1973 Can Am cars? All from a light weight car with an air cooled engine. No one but Porsche could achieve this.

My 2c worth,

Dalton

[JimmyMac]

Check this link


Porsche 917 Specification - 0 to 60mph times, max speed, bhp and more at CKnet

[I LOVE GT40- Paolo]

eheh..probably the legend around the 917k was done by its great victories and all the winning palmares she had. (always remember the drivers were too skilled one,Pedro Rodriguez..Jo Siffert..real HEROES,in a period were races was somthing really different and dangerous than today..).
It was also too fun to see that spinning nearly every turn (the 962 nearly never does..cause ground effect..).
Think that period porsche was THE porsche..if u wanna look at something really innovative and fool..try look at the Porsche 909 Bergspyder..THAT is really a crazy car but nearly unknown cause done for hillclibs and secondary races(studied it..loved it at once..)

Porsche - Porsche 909 Bergspyder Overview

I am trying to found something about its costructive details,cause I have an article in italian that clearly shows the FOOLNESS they had in doing such ligh blast,but cant found anything so detailed on the net (Markus..u surely know..plz help me).
just to have an idea..to save weight they didnt use a fuel pump..but a baloon inside fuel tank... ,pushing outside fuel with its own pressure..LOL

[jyrki]

Paolo, add to Your "list" of 917 drivers: Leo Kinnunen who won Interserie championship -with- Pedro Rodriguez in 917.

About Leo; he was/is very talented driver, went forward to F1 early 70`s (with poor results after financial problems and Surtees F1 really wasn`t ok car...). In Italy somebody even stole his wheels. Wasn`t lucky project.
He developed 917 a much (plz note, he`s own words), and I think Targa Florios fastest ever lap record is Leo`s with 917.
Why this kind of driver was passed by team managers when he was at top? "Well, if somebody have something to say to me, he/she better start to learn finnish!". True or not, this comment is legend in Finland, and then he couldn`t speak english. Attitude problems too?

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by kenshiro8

(Markus..u surely know..plz help me).

Paolo,

trying my best, hope not to be called a smart ass.....

The 909`s dry weight was in fact only 375 kg, 420 kg were that of its successor 910 Bergspyder.

Ferdinand Piech, by then already having a reputation of being obsessed with weight reduction, had ordered his engineers to apply as many trickery as possible:
The 909`s body was so thin that the mechanics were strictly forbidden to sit on any part of the car. The layers of paint on the car`s body were so thin that the paint had always been gone every time the car got washed after a race.
The springs were made of titanium (just like those of the 917).
The ignition resistors were made of plywood.

But the 909`s most spectacular feature were its brakes:
The discs were made of Beryllium. Since this material is extremly toxic, Piech ordered to have the discs chromed.
Piech recalls:"That was sheer madness, since those discs had cost more than the whole rest of the car."
So they only had a set of five brake discs altogether which were always awarded to the car of the faster 909 driver.

[I LOVE GT40- Paolo]

Jirki,
U right
Leo Kinnunen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Leo is another too great one, I remember him for the ralling driving, but reading around seems he was too good in drive everything (read in wikipedia about also le mans movie).
isnt him the one too cool reminded also to drive ALWAYS with cigarette in mouth?
(what did he do today?)

Markus,
U are always a bible on such too special vehicles , the datas for 909 are impressive

[Chris Simpson]

Many years ago I was told by somebody who worked for the Gulf team that there were only 3 drivers in the world who could get the maximum performance out of the Gulf 917s - especially on the more frightening circuits like the original Spa. They were Jo Siffert, Pedro Rodriguez and Jackie Ickx. Unfortunately, the first 2 were just too brave and are no longer with us.

[I LOVE GT40- Paolo]

...just to remind all the guys what was 1970's Spa

If anybody of u likes Pc driving games..Grand Prix Legend has it inside. And that track is too nice and too fast

[jyrki]

Didn`t read wikipedia story before. Hmmmm, somehow I felt it was littlebit "not objective" article, much more like just boosting Leo up
Leo really won rallyes too, with Porsche 911 (reg.no AAW-911) and late 70`s with Volvo 66 (earlier it was DAF 66 ), in winter. He was/is very good multi-purpose -driver, underlined by that Targa Florio record. As far as I know it was more like tarmac rallying than pure racing.
I think the main problem he is not mentioned many historical articles was that he has that attitude, like Timo Makinen in rallying scene. Can`t made up their minds being drivers or engineers + big egos . Just only my thoughts...

More off topic: I saw when I was little boy (still!) 917 full action in Keimola. Very impressive, even it wasn`t a Ford.

[allanfeldman]

It was not a great racer initially in 1969 it was a pig to race and unfortunately cost the life of John Wolfe at Le Mans. Until the car was developed by having a Kurt tail and made more stable then it started winning.
Also when I saw the 917 Langheck at Goodwood FoS a few years ago I was utterly shocked to see that it had no roll cage!! Only a fiberglass bulkhead!!! This car being the Porsche museums Martini painted car. Which in actual fact was an original Gulf chassised car.
Since in 1967 the MKIV Ford had a full roll cage and fire exstingusher system in all their Le Mans cars. Why would Porsche not fit a roll cage it would not have added that much weight to a car being driven for 24hours?
I hope I am wrong and they did fit roll cages in the Le Mans 917's!!!???
Reagrds Allan

[John]

Originally Posted by Dalton

John, are you kidding??
The 917 is a race car icon because it was so fast.
These were the fastest series production cars ever made. The chassis and engine worked correctly from the start, while early handling difficulties (due ...

My 2c worth,

Dalton

Yes, I'm familiar with the development and specs of the 917. But focusing on what makes the 1970 le mans winner so special, how does it compare to a McLaren M8D of the same year? Maybe its pointless the compare the two since they were designed for different races. The 917 for endurence in the rain or shine and the can-am cars for short racers in mostly dry conditions.

But just by looking at the specs of the 1970 M8D, its clear which was the faster car. http://www.mathewscollection.com/mcl...cLaren_M8D.htm
BTW some of the info on this link is erroneous.

When Porsche did enter can-am, it was Roger Penske who helped develop the car into the monster it became. If it wasnt for Penske, there probably would have been something like a 917 Spyder out in the can-am field.

Whatever! I still want one of Fran Hall's 917's.

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by allanfeldman

I hope I am wrong and they did fit roll cages in the Le Mans 917's!!!???
Reagrds Allan

Not exactly what you would call a roll cage, but at least more than just a fibreglass bulkhead. Part of the frame was laminated into the bulkhead, see pics below of the chassis of two 69`cars.

Best,
Marcus

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by allanfeldman

It was not a great racer initially in 1969 it was a pig to race and unfortunately cost the life of John Wolfe at Le Mans.
Reagrds Allan

A real pig indeed, but unfortunately it wasn`t the car to be blamed for John Woolfe`s death. He was an ambitious driver but compared to the professionals the 917 had been designed for he was more of a club racer.
So before the start of the Le Mans 69 race Porsche was begging on its knees to let works testdriver Herbert Linge