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-   -   302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts (http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tech-engines-induction-exhaust/51742-302-351w-im-driving-myself-nuts.html)

70gsconvt 26th February 2018 04:51 PM

302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Well I'm still in the planning stages of a GT40 build. But I really want to have everything lined up before I drop the $$$$.

I've been pouring over all the stuff online regarding various drivetrain possibilities. I think I've got the trans down as a Porsche unit. I've talked with several of the big re-building companies. I want to build a right-hand drive car and have a right hand shifter like the original. So that means a cable shifter and the Porsche units are built that way from the factory. So probably a G50 or varient.

My dilemma is still the engine. I like the idea of cubic inches. The 351 windsor stroked to a 408 will make gobs of power and torque. But I can't get away from the sound of a 289/302 small block.

This video is what really gets me wanting the small block: 1966 Ford GT40 Mk I. Awesome SOUND - Starts, Accelerations & Fly Bys - YouTube

I know that it's a total race engine. But I believe that a solid roller engine at around 10.5 to 1 compression would really sound great. I don't even know that I would need to go to a 347 cid given that the car is only going to weigh about 2600 lbs. or so with me in it. It seems like I can make an honest 400-425hp without sacrificing decent reliability.

Or do I just go for an older SBF and stick with a standard hydraulic flat tappet cam. I don't see my revving it past 6,000 rpm's much, if ever.

Any thoughts from anyone, especially if you've gone through this would be greatly appreciated.

Walt Williams 26th February 2018 05:59 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
I BOUGHT MY MOTOR FROM Brandon at ATK performance ... 347 450hp also had the heads port matched. It dynos at 470hp.. I think 450 ft lb trq. .. very steerable.. plenty of vacuum for the brake booster. Red lines at 6k.. lumpy idle. and affordable with a 2 year warranty.
Ford 347 Stroker Complete Engine 450HP

Walt Williams 26th February 2018 06:42 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Phillip,

You are right 400 hp is plenty..I enjoy mine, just have to use your head when you press on the fun pedal.. My thought was if I had 350 hp it might not be enough (for me) 470 hp is more than the car needs... In 1966 the small blocks made 380 hp and were a 200 mph car.

bill kearley 27th February 2018 12:46 AM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Cmon you guys. A 427w 8 stack 600 plus hp 590 ft lb is a must in anything under 2500 pounds, Walt must be gettn on in years, ay!

Bill

70gsconvt 27th February 2018 06:02 AM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
1 Attachment(s)
Thanks Bill. Stir the pot.

dallas_ 27th February 2018 08:44 AM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
As they always say, what do you intend to do with the car?
If it's street only, the extra power is not needed.
But the sound, oh yes that sound is absolutely necessary in that car. :)

Walt Williams 27th February 2018 11:31 AM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Bill,

your a wild man !!! I would like to be there the first time you go to wide open throttle.. :-)

PHILLIP,

AS FOR A TRANSAXLE, YOU WILL HAVE TO FIND ONE THAT CAN HANDLE 400 PLUS HP. I BOUGHT A 6 SPEED GETRAG FORM ADVANCED AUTOMOTION. RATED FOR 500 HP. SO FAR IT IS GREAT

blueovalz 27th February 2018 02:36 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
I've run the 289 (high strung, high rever, in a lighweight car), which was nice, especially the lack of torque in a lighter car allowed the tires to stay planted progressively. Then did the 302 stroker, which was okay, and was a nice blend of torque but reduced red-line, and then the 351W stroker (383), which was what I considered by far the best choice. It was a monster compared to the other two, and the additional 60-70 lbs (?) was never noticed. With the right rods, it red-lined at 7200 without a lot of expense, which was plenty for what I used it for.

jac mac 27th February 2018 03:33 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 70gsconvt (Post 519864)

Or do I just go for an older SBF and stick with a standard hydraulic flat tappet cam. I don't see my revving it past 6,000 rpm's much, if ever

You really answered your own question, use a 351w old school, NO STROKER, IF you must spend money on it get a steel/forged crank with std 3.5" stroke, 6.125" rods from scat ( lightest they make ) and forged pistons from 289/302, flat top or dished with std 1.6" compression height. That gives a component stack of 1.75 +6.125+1.6 = 9.475" that leaves the piston 0.005" down @ TDC and a bottom end that will run all day @ 7000 if need be. But its really over kill given your paragraph above.

Cliffbeer2 27th February 2018 03:56 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Just my $.02.

I've had a 289 which could rev really nice up to about 6500 rpm, and put out a reliable 375hp - great engine.

I currently have a 347 but don't have much run time with it. I suspect redline is 6000 rpm max, but hp torque is around 425/425.

How about a 331 stroker? Should rev well and get a bit of a power bump over the 289. Happy compromise in the SBF range?

Cobra 27th February 2018 07:59 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 70gsconvt (Post 519864)
Or do I just go for an older SBF and stick with a standard hydraulic flat tappet cam. I don't see my revving it past 6,000 rpm's much, if ever.

I think this is all you'll need to have the sound and performance to suit you. This is the route I was planning to go before I came across the car I bought. I have an early 302 from a Falcon wagon sitting in my garage, it may yet end up in my car.

Dave Hood 27th February 2018 09:52 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Phillip:

These cars are so light, that a 302 block will give you all the power you need. Especially if you're going to drive your car on the street. My 347 gives me about 475hp.

New EFI and Megaphones Dec 2017 - YouTube

70gsconvt 27th February 2018 10:48 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Thanks for all the input. Car will be primarily a street car. But I do want to be able to back up it's looks. My "goal" was to be able to at least hang, if not slightly beat, a new Corvette on the street. So I was figuring with a 2500 lb car against a 3300 lb. Corvette, I'd need around 425 -450 hp to keep up. I do love the sound of the 302 small block. But the 351W stroker keeps calling me because of the cubic inches and all in basically the same package as the smaller CID engine. Thanks guys, I'm now more confused than ever. :rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

It's also a dilemma for me with tires. I like the idea of having 12-13" brake rotors. But putting 17's on the car makes it look more like the newer Ford GT vs having 15" wheels and the bigger sidewall which definitely screams 1960's. I guess I can get away with 11" rotors all around. It's not going to be a track car. Just gotta figure out how to put smaller rotors on a C5 suspension like Active Power cars use.

Cobrajet 28th February 2018 12:31 AM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Small Block Ford Reality

I've always enjoyed reading Arron's no-nonsense point of view on engine building, specifically, Fords. This link and a few others make for some entertaining read...

bill kearley 28th February 2018 12:42 AM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Engine is in Walt, I think for the last time. Susp dun. Electrics, full steam ahead. I have a gopro with a bunch of pics, not shr how to get them on the site.

Bill

MHNCO 28th February 2018 01:31 AM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Replaced a 427 stroker with a 302. Car feels livelier and more fun to drive. Do you want a Harley or a crotch rocket?

Cobrajet 28th February 2018 01:43 AM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Mike, I have a Harley for the street and long rides....but would definitely choose a 'crotch rocket' for the track. Regarding your stroker, I think any engine can be livened up some...depends on the tune and how it was built. As an extreme, big cubic inch drag motors, Top Fuelers, are pretty lively.

Springtime's just a few weeks away....how soon before you get your car back on the road?

blueovalz 28th February 2018 09:42 AM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 70gsconvt (Post 519946)
Thanks for all the input. Car will be primarily a street car. But I do want to be able to back up it's looks. My "goal" was to be able to at least hang, if not slightly beat, a new Corvette on the street. So I was figuring with a 2500 lb car against a 3300 lb. Corvette, I'd need around 425 -450 hp to keep up. I do love the sound of the 302 small block. But the 351W stroker keeps calling me because of the cubic inches and all in basically the same package as the smaller CID engine. Thanks guys, I'm now more confused than ever. :rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

Mac Jac kinda hit on what I found so appealing (aside from the powerhouse it was) about the stroked 351. It was a economic kit, but the rod length to stroke ratio got it back toward the 289 (with the proper rods/pistons), whereas the stroked 302s (IMHO) really push the envelope.

MHNCO 28th February 2018 01:07 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobrajet (Post 519955)
Mike, I have a Harley for the street and long rides....but would definitely choose a 'crotch rocket' for the track. Regarding your stroker, I think any engine can be livened up some...depends on the tune and how it was built. As an extreme, big cubic inch drag motors, Top Fuelers, are pretty lively.

Springtime's just a few weeks away....how soon before you get your car back on the road?

It's ready now for the most part just going over everything and making some slight enhancements here and there.

The 427 was very lively but certainly a different feel than the 302. That said, both are much much different than the SC Modular that was in my FGT. We could talk a lot about what makes a T/F engine lively but it would have little to do with cubic inches. That SC FGT made massive torque right off idle. Both the 302 and the 427 need to turn some RPMs before they get going. The 302 has a lighter rotating assembly that along with the aluminum flywheel, makes it much snappier than the 427 which feels more like a pickup truck engine. As everyone understands there are lot of factors affecting engine behavior and personality with tradeoffs depending on the direction you head in. Obviously, many here are happy with the larger CI 9.5" deck configuration. I went the other direction with the alloy 302 and am also very happy.

70gsconvt 28th February 2018 05:23 PM

Re: 302 or 351W??? I'm driving myself nuts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MHNCO (Post 519953)
Replaced a 427 stroker with a 302. Car feels livelier and more fun to drive. Do you want a Harley or a crotch rocket?

I want a Harley that as fast as a crotch rocket. And it should sip gas like a Prius and jump off the line like a Tesla in "Ludicrous" mode.

That's not asking for too much, is it???

And WOW!! Aaron really has an opinion on a 351W vs a 289/302.


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