Differences between the GT40s

OK, time for me to get a little educated in these cars.

I ran a search on "difference Mk-I Mk-IV" and didn't find what I was looking for really.

What are the differences in the various iterations of these cars? What are the production figures etc?

I heard from someone that Ford made more S/Ns than they did cars, which is why you could assemble spares or original parts and get an "original" GT40. If there was such a thing, wasn't the last one of these sold in England? If not, what was the one sold there? Pretty much a parts car as I understand it. Never assembled and all.

I don't know if I'm being too much of a purist here, but I think calling that car an original would be a stretch at best. Are there others out there like that? Any cheap ones? :grin: Maybe something between an original and a replica is more fair?

Opinions?

Cheers
 
Many would consider a Safir (MK V) as "in between"
original GT40s and replicas. The MK V tub was very different, and of course considering the time frame
MK V's were built, they have no racing pedigree.
However the "average" Safir price is far below what
original MK I,II,III,IV command. I think there
was a recent post on this Forum of a Safir that recently
failed to sell at Auction for $ 150k US thereabouts.

Safir (asking) pricing varies a lot. If the price of original GT40s rises...maybe Safir prices will also rise?
On the other hand, there are those who think the new Ford
GT at $ 150k each will saturate the market and keep GT40
prices down. Guess we'll find out!

MikeD
 
Safir, is that what it's commonly known as? I'll do a search on it to see what comes up.

I have kind of mixed feelings about the new one. I mean, I want to like it, but I'm not sure I do. The original is so gorgeous I don't know if Ford is doing the right thing. I think that if they keep production numbers low it might be worth a good look.

Would be interested in driving one, but I can imagine what that's going to be like. Probably near impossible, like when the first Vipers rolled off the line.

Cheers
 
I think the place to start is by reading:
GT 40 Ronnie Spain
Ford GT 40 Legate
Ford GT 40 John S. Allen
Forg GT 40 David Hodges
Ford That Beat Ferrari Allen/Jones
Then I'd watch "LeMans" and read "A French Kiss With Death"
about the making of the movie.
Even though "LeMans" doesn't feature GT40's (Ferrari 512's and Porsche 917's) it does give you a taste of obsession which the book really goes into and obsession is a great part of wanting to own a piece of history.
The MKI, MKII, MKIIB,MKIII, Mirage, and MKIV are all quite different. The most accurate replica? IMHO my friend Lee Holman's MKII which as his Dad's co. Holman and Moody (now Lee's Co.) was the original MFG of the MKII and MKIIB the car he makes while having no history is really more of a "Continuation" than a replica.
To me it's always been about the magic of history. That however is more something you either feel or you don't it's not quantifible.
A well built replica is a wonderful thing as well esp. if you have a hand in it's creation. Not everyone gets to drive something built by their own hands...
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
It seems to me that most folks regard the Mark V cars, aka Safir GT40s, as original GT40s, not replicas. Actually Safir was not part of their name- they were GT40 Mark V cars, powered by Ford, built by Safir Engineering Ltd under an agreement with JW Automotive. Their serial numbers picked up where JWA left off, and the present owners of
Safir are still very much in business supplying parts and service for Mark V cars. (mine as well). Some serial numbers were reserved for unassembled cars which are numbered after the production GT40P cars and before the Mark V cars. The body of a Mark V is essentially identical to a Mark I, it ought to be, it came from the same molds. The build quality of a Mark V is better than that of a MArk I or II car, but then again the aim was different by that point in time.
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
Jim,

Yes the Safir cars were VERY well finished as they were selling to a market that saw them as an alternitive to other "exotic" cars.

I take issue with the statements Lee Holman has made about H-M being the "original manufacturer" of the Mk IIs. Holman and Moody got the cars as semi finished roller just as Shelby American did yet even Shelby who has claimed to have invented everything short of the airplane does not claim to be the "manufacturer". The quote in ROAD & TRACK from Lee Holman that Ford did not want the cars running Ford VIN numbers for "liability reasons" is just wrong IMHO. They ran the cars for years previously with the FAV/Ford numbers and continued to use Ford supplied VIN numbers and tags into the J Car/Mark IV series AFTER the MK IIs. Even after Ken Miles tragic death in the J car Ford continued to assign VINs to the Mk IV series, something they would not have done if liability was an issue. I think this is a case of Lee trying to increase the "provenance" of his cars, something he does not need to do-they are fine cars and super recreations of the MK IIs in every way.

Rick
 
Cool, I'll look into the books.

Now for the next stupid question.

Mk-IIs won Le Mans in 1966, right? Then Mk-IV won in 1967? Which model won in 1968 and 1969? What happened to the Mk-IIIs?

Cheers
 
In 1968 the FIA limited engine displacement to 5.0L for production based cars (GT40 had now produced enough to be considered a production car) and Ford backed out of racing as they felt they had accomplished what they wanted to, etc. Thus updated versions of the Mk I were reintroduced and did a great job winning LeMans in 68 and 69 (although a close race!). Mk III was strictly a street car which they only made seven.
 
As it says up above buy one of the books or check out a site like http://www.gt40.org.uk/ Roaring Forties which has many of the answers to the questions you are about to ask !

And if you do a search in this site you will find a long thread about the car sold earlier this year in England at Christies
 
Interestingly the same chassis # 1075 MKI won LeMans in 68 and 69. 1075 is now owned by Rob Walton. At one time Peter Lavonos paid over 10 million $ for 1075. Today it's probably worth close to that even though it's unlikely it will ever come up for sale again.
BTW the only "GT40's" that have a FORD chassis plate are the J Cars/MK-IV's.
Best
 
Jim R,

Not to start a controversy (???), but if the Safirs
(MK V) are "original"....then so are the continuation Shelby Cobras sold by you know who. Same concept.

The initial question was whether there existed a "tweener".
IMHO the Safir falls in that category. In any case, they are very nice cars.

MikeD
 
1074 and 1075 winners were mirages that were rebodied with MK I clothing. The only thing that's stil unclear to me
was the engine they ran at Lemans. I say it was a 302 Boss but several have indicated that they were not. I still haven't found a direct statement that says which blocks were used.

Hersh :)
 

Rick Muck- Mark IV

GT40s Sponsor
Supporter
Hersh,

Although all my info is second hand and gleened from public sources I dio NOT think the cars used the "Boss" 4 bolt block. They did use the "Gurney-Weslake" heads and did run at some times in larger than 5 liter form but I can find no history of the Boss block being used in 1968 in anything other than the Trans-Am (where it was "technically" not legal due to non-homolagation)

Regardsless, the Boss 4 bolt makes a great GT40 engine base keeping in mind that the advances made in the standard 5.0 make some of the features less important nowdays.

Rick :grin:
 
Thanks guys,
I went back and did a search to refresh my memory and good ol' Marco had the answers.
Mark clapp, it's not how it started life but how 1075's race career ended. I thought it was with a Mirage chassis.

Hersh :)
 

Brian Kissel

Staff member
Admin
Lifetime Supporter
Just a quick note . Marco has been out of the country for the past few months. He was home for a short time the end of June, and sent me some articles on the LOLA T 70's. He seems to have an amazing amount of information (books, articles, pictures etc.) on the GT 40's, and was always a pleasure to read his input. I'll look forward to his posting when he is once again home.

Brian
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Actually, the very early GT40s did have a VIN plate which said Ford Motor Company, or something like it. I have a snapshot of this plate inside Bill Wonder's car, GT40 #103, and it is the original plate and does say Ford on it. It is the oldest GT40 extant, owned by Bill since he bought it from the Shelby team, and has never been restored, but is maintained in raceworthy condition. It is not the best known of the vintage GT40s but IMHO one of the most significant, because it was the first one to win a race, and because of who drove it- Miles and Hulme.
 
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