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Old 2nd March 2007, 02:55 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Thumbs down How stupid is this?

MSNZ (NZ's governing body for motorsport) has just made this announcement :-


Quote
"Dear Licence Holders and Officials,


Race Fuel

AVGAS is to be phased out as an acceptable race fuel at the end of this season. It will be prohibited to use it in any of the National Race Championship classes, and all competitors will be required to run on unleaded fuel.

The benefits of AVGAS are more perceived than real, and no-one will be disadvantaged if everyone is running the same unleaded fuel.

The Toyota Racing Series have indicated that they intent to run on biofuel next Season.

The sport must be seen to re responsible. While our emissions are relatively minimal it is not good for the environment to use any leaded fuels.

Alternative Energy Ahead

MotorSport New Zealand is proposing to establish an Alternative Energy Commission which will be charged with tapping into all available expertise to help plot a way forward for motorsport, in what is a fast changing environment. The intention is that it would work with and draw on the knowledge of bodies like the Waikato Institute of Technology and TORC, (the Tertiary Hybrid Open Rally Challenge)." Unquote

Officialdom pandering to uninformed public opinion and vociferous lobby groups with an ear to government!

Has this stupidy raised it's ugly head yet in any other country?
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Old 2nd March 2007, 04:55 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

Hi Russ

Don't disagree with concept of bureacrats spoiling fun but as a discussion position, does it matter what fuel we run so long as we can run? Talking with race organisers here and seeing what happened at Le Mans with the Audi diesels, the writing had to be on the wall for what is classed as non green fuels. Look at the history of motorsport. Remember the fuels in USA that when they ignited thy burnt with invisible flames? Alcohol based fuels, rocket fuel, $20,000 per litre fuels? All gone now. Also compare to the issues such as safety requirements that have been enforced us. Soon we will all have to use Hans devices I suspect. Speeds get chopped by design limitations, no more 1400 bhp Can Am monsters.

But not to be completey a wimp and giving in to the Greenies, the one thing that bugs me is noise limitations applied to long established circuits for when new housing appears nearby! Who was there first?

Going back to bureacrats, I was told once it would be a good idea to shoot one bureacrat a day. Firstly this reduces the number of bureacrats and secondly it bucks up the ideas of those remaining bureacrats as they don't want to be the next one against the wall!
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Old 2nd March 2007, 07:05 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Angry Re: How stupid is this?

Not fuel related but ....

Beyond all expected to be reasonable. Here in Holland we have a racetrack, near the sea aside to the cultivated bowl, called Circuit Park Zandvoort. During the season the track has a so called track sound allowance of 7 days. Some years ago the track was licensed by the FIA for formula one as you might know. The track organization is working hard to get more allowed sound days to organize more and bigger big events like ‘A1 grandprix’, ‘DTM’ etc.

Unfortunately a three member ‘anti’ committee prevented this because they feel the noise nuisance is to high.

Where’s the fairness in this ….
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Old 2nd March 2007, 07:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

Hey Malcolm, I didn't understand your bit about

"when they ignited they burnt with invisible flames? Alcohol based fuels - All gone now"

They're still running methanol surely at least in Champ Car and Drags?

Ethanol? What was the Green Nasdamax Le Mans car running on? First Cosworth then Zytec powered. I thought this was alcohol based too...

Wood alcohol is ultimately a very green fuel with zero carbon emission surely?

And I also understand the major refiners are adding alcohol to diesel to give a 5% bio base, although I may be wrong about that one too...

Please feel free to correct me anyone....
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Old 2nd March 2007, 08:40 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

Keith,

I agree! I have been thinking a lot about this lately and the only good PC(green), engineering reasonable, performance fuel to me is alcohol (or a gas-alcohol mix.) You'll have to burn a lot more of it, some seals in the fuel system may have to be replaced, but at least you won't have to pull your pistons to drop the compression ratio or buy heads with larger chambers.

I know race engines get rebuilt more than the standard road engine, but to accomodate a large shift in octane rating, even racers need a pretty good bit of lead or transition time.

Russ, what is really stupid about it is that it is all done for image and appearances. Unfortunately, as in politics, more and more of life is being dictated by appearances and image rather than reality and fact. The contribution of racing and the car hobby together to any real or perceived pollution is a gnats ass compared to an elephant.

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Old 2nd March 2007, 08:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

I stand corrected - or did I just get flamed with invisible flames?????
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Old 2nd March 2007, 09:16 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

Please forgive me is this sounds even remotely zenophobic, it's not meant to be, but if alcohol is one "green" way forward, then the Russian and Polish peoples will surely never run out of either fuel or drink! (this is Mr Green, < over there on the left, surely an appropriate smiley given the core message of this thread)
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Old 2nd March 2007, 09:21 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm
I stand corrected - or did I just get flamed with invisible flames?????
Oh, very droll.

Talking about invisible flames, (which is why they squirt water over Champ cars fuel filler system as they pull out of the pits after a refueling stop - just in case it's on fire!) If you ever got near a Champ car running in the pits at the Goodwood Festival, you'd be crying for hours! Methanol is most unkind to the tear ducts, well mine at least....
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Old 2nd March 2007, 12:27 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

Keith,

They squirt water because the can!

Alcohol being water soluble, as opposed to petroleum based fuels like gas or diesel., is diluted down so any spill from refueling is rendered virtually harmless by the water.

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Old 2nd March 2007, 12:52 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

So is this why the crews pour the big barrels of water on the crew chief when they win a race? Hee Hee! Remember the Beneton F1 pit fire? You could really see that one!
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Old 2nd March 2007, 01:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

I think the whole reason for alcohol fules in champ cars is because a number of years ago there was a large fire. As you know, champ runs a lot of circle tracks. If im thinking of the right incident, the pictures showed the entire infield of the course on fire. Each race teams fuel supples went up one after another. It looks like some sort of war zone. Of course, putting water on it did nothing because of its petrol base. Thus, the switch the alcohol.

They are currently moving from methanol to Ethanol (which is made from biosmass); and I think increasing displacement from 3.5L to 4.0L.
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Old 2nd March 2007, 02:35 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

And Ron wonderd why I was nervous when Ricky turned up with the "bomb" at VIR , 275 gallons of petrol in a plastic cube! And guys were smoking around it! Scary stuff.
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Old 2nd March 2007, 06:28 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Wink Re: How stupid is this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malcolm
So is this why the crews pour the big barrels of water on the crew chief when they win a race? Hee Hee! Remember the Beneton F1 pit fire? You could really see that one!
Given the stress that crew chiefs are put under by drivers suffering 'Red Mist' and other brain disconnection afflictions, a large alcohol intake by any crew chief ( Post event of course ) should be excused!!

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Old 2nd March 2007, 07:00 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

Let me VERY clear. The anti car people and I mean ANY cars, mean to get rid of all cars. Race cars, my car, your car, ALL cars. It's the same thing with firearms. Start with handguns, then simi auto, and then all the rest. Finally bullits for all of us who hide their guns. The difference with cars is they have learned from guns. Go for the fuel and they don't have to collect the cars.

Think I'm nuts. Just wait. I say don't give in to nothin!!!!!!
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Old 2nd March 2007, 08:51 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Jones
Let me VERY clear. The anti car people and I mean ANY cars, mean to get rid of all cars. Race cars, my car, your car, ALL cars. It's the same thing with firearms. Start with handguns, then simi auto, and then all the rest. Finally bullits for all of us who hide their guns. The difference with cars is they have learned from guns. Go for the fuel and they don't have to collect the cars.

Think I'm nuts. Just wait. I say don't give in to nothin!!!!!!
You got it Howard, in one....
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Old 3rd March 2007, 10:21 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: How stupid is this?

Howard,

I am with you on guns and other freedoms being slowly chipped away! I have posted elsewhere that if there was a place that wasn't happening, I'd seriously consider reloacating, but, alas, there isn't.

I agree with everything you said, BUT when it comes to fuel, we should be smart too. There is a FINITE supply of petrol based fuels on this planet. I will concede that it is possible that they could discover some vast new reservoir of oil, but not very probably.

Wouldn't it be nice to, rather than being the crisis reactors that we normally are, to have figured out a renewable source of fuel for our cars? (Assuming we win the day against those whould take them away.) And why not from us, the grassroots racers since it is typically from the grassroots that the seeds of new innovation usually come.

Lynn

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