Would this car pass a technical inspection?

[Gregg]

Would this car pass a technical inspection at a race track? Here are some pictures of my Lola T70 Spyder, which was built by a “professional” shop. The shop owner represents the car to be a “high quality build”. It lacks seatbelts, amongst other things. Barring the lack of seatbelts, would the car pass a technical inspection on the track?

The first pictures are pictures of the tail and the door locking pin affixed to the tail. When you close the door, it catches the pin affixed to the tail and the doors stay closed. The pin is not affixed to a stationary solid point on the car. If the tail is off the car, there is no way to keep the doors closed, so if you wanted to do some hot laps with the tail off the car and make adjustments, you can not do that. The tail is held in by quick pins in the rear and a single catch on either side of the car as can be seen in the first photo.

The next two pictures were taken looking down the nose panel by the radiator. As you can see, the aluminum paneling does not close off either side of the chassis as you can clearly see the suspension, car tire and plywood floor of my trailer.

The next picture was taken by putting the camera down the radiator cut out of the nose panel. You can see the radiator lines, steering rack, as well as trailer’s plywood floor, as the professional builder felt it unnecessary to aluminum panel the entire floor.

The builder had this car for over 4 years and feels I should be happy with the quality of his work.

So my questions are, would you consider this a “high quality” build and would the car pass a track technical inspection? If there are any NY DMV inspectors on the board, would the car pass a NY DMV road inspection?

 

[Dean Lampe]

I had the privilege of overseeing the Run and Gun event for many years. The tech inspections where for safety of the driver and other drivers on the track. You would not be allowed to do laps with the rear off of your car. That makes it an open wheel car and that is usually not allowed on open track days. The rest of the points you make would not effect the safety of the vehicle and would be allowed to race unless I am missing something in the pictures.

Others might chime in with their opinions as well.

 

[Gregg]

I had the privilege of overseeing the Run and Gun event for many years. The tech inspections where for safety of the driver and other drivers on the track. You would not be allowed to do laps with the rear off of your car. That makes it an open wheel car and that is usually not allowed on open track days. The rest of the points you make would not effect the safety of the vehicle and would be allowed to race unless I am missing something in the pictures.

Others might chime in with their opinions as well.

Randy, thanks for your honest opinion, although I see your post has been removed. I presume voluntarily, at the request of a certain manufacturer.

Dean, thanks for your insight. However, I have yet to see a replica manufacturer who does not skin the entire floor in aluminum, or the wheel wells to protect the radiator and coolant lines. I have seen the pictures of Ron Earp's car for sale and can say that it appears to be built properly with an approved roll cage, enclosed floor and chassis as well as fixed mounting point for the doors.

As I intend to sell this car, I would like honest opinions as I do not intend to represent the car to be able to be driven on the track if it would not qualify for same. Thanks for all those who have replied.

Best regards, Gregg

Congrats to the Giants!

 

[Dean Lampe]

I can't tell from your pictures but is the issue that you can see the trailer floor when your sitting in the car?

I didn't see Randy's post.

 

[Johan]

Maybe paint the trailer floor a nicer color ?
Seriously, the issues you mentioned with the car could be repaired at the track
in order to run for the weekend. You could strap the doors closed until you found a better way to secure them. Original T70s have complete aluminum paneling
but the coolant hoses run outside of them (and sometime scrape). What about other issues that have to do with track use ? What is the clearance under the oil pan and does it have a fire system and such ?
Where were you when the car was being built ? It seems a little late
to make detail changes. Did you buy it to sell it or are you selling it because you
are not happy with it ?
If you actually want a race car or even a track day car, then the day the car arrives from the manufacturer, whether that is Dallara, Lola, Crawford, Riley etc. is the day you start taking the
car apart and updating it. Racecars do not come brand new ready to race.
As a matter of fact, nothing is ever really ready to race, except that they just made last call to the grid !

 

[Dean Lampe]

This a picture of the GT40 front end. The suspension is not totally sealed off. If you looked down the radiator opening you would be able to see the floor on this front end as well.

I have also seen quite a few FFR daytona's that run the upper radiator hose in the passenger tire well. The lower radiator hose on every cobra I have ever built has been open to the road below the hose. I have never seen a front engine car that had any type of floor extend under the radiator. I realize yours is a mid engine but the fact that the hose is exposed would not keep you off the track.

That is an honest answer although it might not be the answer you wanted, you would definately be allowed on the track.

 

[Johan]

You could ask this question at
Vintageracerules.com
Which has the tech inspectors for many race groups as patrons.
They could give you a self tech worksheet.

 

[Randy V]

I deleted my post because after re-reading your post, I realized that it was apples to oranges. I don't profess to be knowledgable in what might be accepted for Track Days or NY DMV. This thread may be more topical to the Lola T70 Lounge forum..

 

[Gregg]

You could ask this question at
Vintageracerules.com
Which has the tech inspectors for many race groups as patrons.
They could give you a self tech worksheet.

Johan, thanks for the info.

 

[Gregg]

View attachment 57173

This a picture of the GT40 front end. The suspension is not totally sealed off. If you looked down the radiator opening you would be able to see the floor on this front end as well.

I have also seen quite a few FFR daytona's that run the upper radiator hose in the passenger tire well. The lower radiator hose on every cobra I have ever built has been open to the road below the hose. I have never seen a front engine car that had any type of floor extend under the radiator. I realize yours is a mid engine but the fact that the hose is exposed would not keep you off the track.

That is an honest answer although it might not be the answer you wanted, you would definately be allowed on the track.

Dean, I am only seeking "honest" answers. Based upon the picture you provided, I can not confirm any of your statements.

I do not know what answer you think I wanted, and as the photo's of my car show, there are no brake cooling hoses installed.

Perhaps you can answer these two questions for me. As you owned an RCR vehicle, (1) weren't the wheel wells completely paneled/sealed using aluminum? and
(2) wasn't your car's floor completely paneled/sealed in aluminum or was your car designed and built with a giant hole in the floor by the radiator hoses/steering rack?

Thanks, Gregg

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

All RCR cars vent some of the radiator air into the wheel wells..similar to a modern Porsche Boxster...there is an open area in the panelling to reduce the air pressure under the nose panel...and prevent potential billowing of the nose due to enough air not being able to vent through the nostril/scoop/rad exhaust area...
Point in case...original Mk1 twin scoop nostril panels are not as efficient as the Mk2 single scoop.....
The better evacuation of air in the nose area of these 1960's designed cars also helped with aerodynamics...again the Mk1 vs Mk2 nostril panel is the perfect example...
There is no wheel well panelling on an RCR40 ....There is an open space above the radiator support side panels also..
Here are pictures of the RCR40 design...the third picture is of an original GT40 (black chassis)...the SLC has exposed steering rack, coolant tubes and is fully sanctioned by race organisations in the USA and happens to be National Championship winning car in the fastest class with NASA.....see last two pics.

 

[Gregg]

All RCR cars vent some of the radiator air into the wheel wells..similar to a modern Porsche Boxster...there is an open area in the panelling to reduce the air pressure under the nose panel...and prevent potential billowing of the nose due to enough air not being able to vent through the nostril/scoop/rad exhaust area...
Point in case...original Mk1 twin scoop nostril panels are not as efficient as the Mk2 single scoop.....
The better evacuation of air in the nose area of these 1960's designed cars also helped with aerodynamics...again the Mk1 vs Mk2 nostril panel is the perfect example...
There is no wheel well panelling on an RCR40 ....There is an open space above the radiator support side panels also..
Here are pictures of the RCR40 design

Fran, thanks for the photos. They show that RCR panels the floor and protects the radiator hoses. It also shows the tub is sealed by the suspension pickup points. My car shows a lack of both.

Any idea why a builder would fail to skin the entire floor and protect the radiator & radiator hoses from street/track debris?

Any idea why a builder would fail to seal off the wheel wells and protect the suspension mounting points from street/track debris?

Any idea why a builder would mount the door locking pins to my removable fiberglass tail, instead of a fixed mounting point on the car like they did on Ron Earp's car?

Thanks, and I will look for your replies.

Gregg

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

The rad hoses are exposed on the SLC and run into the wheel wells...with no protection and no issues to date even during a 1000 mile race

The only area required by SCCA/NASA/NASCAR/IMSA et al to be panelled is the floor of the cockpit area.

Check the suspension pick ups on an original GT40...they are exposed...its good enough, and safe enough for a 4 time Le Mans winner...and many original GT40s from the 60's are still around with the exact same layout with no modifications made..even the continuation cars from SPF have this same detail.

Door pins are attached to the tail to prevent the tail blowing open as the tail cannot be opened with the doors closed....redundant safety precaution,there are two over center latches plus the door pins, as one never knows when a tail section may not be properly latched and the driver pull away and lose the tail section, many GT40 owners can attest to this being a real issue, same goes for Ultima GTR owners. The SL-C has a similar redundant system...the tail cannot be opened without the doors first being opened..
Rons car has two tubes that will prevent the tail from blowing open in the event of a forgetful leave..hence he does not need the redundant "save my tail" door pin solution.

 

[Jim Glickenhaus]

I agree with Johan regarding original cars. Ferrari P cars are lethal. Lola's a bit better and Ford GT's even better BUT none are built like modern race cars.

P 4/5 CM can take 70,000 lb dropped on it's roof and only deflect 1/2 of an inch.

It's CF body can take a hit that would destroy an original Ferrari P. Original MK-IV's are a bit tougher than MKI's and MKII's.

Look at the Audi LMP 1 crash at 2011 Le Mans. VERY few cars could keep a driver alive during that crash.

 

[Dean Lampe]

You want an "honest" answer?

No you don't, you want an answer that agrees with your point of view, which is incorrect. Just look at the pictures. What difference do cooling ducts make? That has nothing to do with it. You can see that my car is not sealed at all.


I was just trying to give you the benefit of my experience and answer your initial question.

Did you take Johan's advice and check with those guys? I bet not.

You asked a question, would your car pass a track day tech inspection? From the very limited pictures, I would pass your car as would any other inspector I have every ran across.

 

[Howard Jones]

I think I can speak to open track use and tech inspection of those kind of cars. Race cars (wheel to wheel) I cannot speak to. I have done some tech inspection and here's what I look for in a cobra, Lola, gt40 type kit car in a middle speed run group like me. Fastest groups are usually treated like full on race cars.

1. driver restraint system. Must have 4 point minimum. I would discuss the advantage of a 5 or 6 point with the driver especially in a lay back seat like in the Lola and GT40. Cobra's have their own issues but certainly would benefit from a 5 point at least.

Mount points must pass through/rap around a chassis rail or roll over bar with the bolt (nylock) backed up with a nice fat washer. NO FLOOR Board mounts or bodywork mounts. These will fail a car until repaired.

Seats themselves must be rigid when forcefully shaken by hand. Loose seats are as bad a loose seat belts. Prefer name brand race seats with proper mounts into a chassis rail/roll bar system. Will except a nice big backing plate behind steel floor. No mounts on .60 alum floor panel with 1/4 20 hardware.

2. Brakes, must have NO pump up, full of fluid, full thickness pads (used OK) but not thin. No apparent leaking fluid on calipers or hoses or anywhere else for that matter.

3. Battery, Hold down system will survive a roll over and high G loads. Positive terminal must be full covered with non-conductive material that will not come off with out tool removal. Power cables generally in a good state of installation. (I've seen one with 4 feet of loose cable transversing 10 inches from battery to solenoid a foot from the fan).

4. Wheel lug bolts/bearings and tires. Here's where I have found the most issues. Loose wheel bearings are at the very top of my list. Many Many MANY! are loose. Lug bolts missing occasionally and very low tire pressures. Start your tires out at 1% of vehicle weight cold, minimum and check after the first run. 2500 pound car/ 25-30 PSI will get you started safely. No cord showing. Street tires not below wear bars.

5. Engine room, double springs on throttle return, glass filters are bad, loose stuff like air filter housings are bad, water hoses soft and in good repair. NO LEAKS OF ANYKIND. Look at engine mounts as best as possible. Fan belts in good repair and tight enough. Ask if motor is sound and full of oil/ water. NO GAS LEAKS. Carb/filter/pump fittings tight. Exhaust system not falling off.

6. No loose anything in trunk or cockpit. Passenger belt system latched together when not in use. One mirror/ camera monitor in center of dashboard and one minimum mirror on fender driver side. Two better both sides.

7. Fire bottle securely fastened in cockpit. FULL 2 lb handheld OK, on board 5lb better.

8. General presentation, everything looks like it is done right. Body panels not loose. interior carpets secured, windshield secured, welding looks right, if any, and the car generally looks like it won't fall apart in the first 5 mins.

9. BRAKE LIGHTS WORK!!!!

10. Roll bars if required in spec. Two seat cars like Lola's and cobras require two hoops or one full width bar behind seats, if a passenger rides along at speed, with at least one triangulation per side making it a 3 or 4 point bar. If it has a roll bar it must be mounted with large mounting plates or to the chassis or roll cage.

11. Helmet up to date and spec.

12. Gas cap OK, old monza style flip open/ no inside cap/ discouraged. Must wire closed if old style. (the old ones like mine are a bad idea and I know it. I expect to be called on it sooner or later)

As you can see this is not a race car tech class rules inspection, but a general safety inspection. The above takes about 10-15 mins and isn't as bad as it looks on paper. I am sure I missed something or left off something other people would require but you get the idea. Expect these requirements to become more stringent over time.

Rons car is a perfect example of a safe track car. Less is in fact, less safe, IMHO. But then my opinion is free after all.

 

[Gregg]

I think I can speak to open track use and tech inspection of those kind of cars. Race cars (wheel to wheel) I cannot speak to. I have done some tech inspection and here's what I look for in a cobra, Lola, gt40 type kit car in a middle speed run group like me. Fastest groups are usually treated like full on race cars.

1. driver restraint system. Must have 4 point minimum. I would discuss the advantage of a 5 or 6 point with the driver especially in a lay back seat like in the Lola and GT40. Cobra's have their own issues but certainly would benefit from a 5 point at least.

Mount points must pass through/rap around a chassis rail or roll over bar with the bolt (nylock) backed up with a nice fat washer. NO FLOOR Board mounts or bodywork mounts. These will fail a car until repaired.

Seats themselves must be rigid when forcefully shaken by hand. Loose seats are as bad a loose seat belts. Prefer name brand race seats with proper mounts into a chassis rail/roll bar system. Will except a nice big backing plate behind steel floor. No mounts on .60 alum floor panel with 1/4 20 hardware.

2. Brakes, must have NO pump up, full of fluid, full thickness pads (used OK) but not thin. No apparent leaking fluid on calipers or hoses or anywhere else for that matter.

3. Battery, Hold down system will survive a roll over and high G loads. Positive terminal must be full covered with non-conductive material that will not come off with out tool removal. Power cables generally in a good state of installation. (I've seen one with 4 feet of loose cable transversing 10 inches from battery to solenoid a foot from the fan).

4. Wheel lug bolts/bearings and tires. Here's where I have found the most issues. Loose wheel bearings are at the very top of my list. Many Many MANY! are loose. Lug bolts missing occasionally and very low tire pressures. Start your tires out at 1% of vehicle weight cold, minimum and check after the first run. 2500 pound car/ 25-30 PSI will get you started safely. No cord showing. Street tires not below wear bars.

5. Engine room, double springs on throttle return, glass filters are bad, loose stuff like air filter housings are bad, water hoses soft and in good repair. NO LEAKS OF ANYKIND. Look at engine mounts as best as possible. Fan belts in good repair and tight enough. Ask if motor is sound and full of oil/ water. NO GAS LEAKS. Carb/filter/pump fittings tight. Exhaust system not falling off.

6. No loose anything in trunk or cockpit. Passenger belt system latched together when not in use. One mirror/ camera monitor in center of dashboard and one minimum mirror on fender driver side. Two better both sides.

7. Fire bottle securely fastened in cockpit. FULL 2 lb handheld OK, on board 5lb better.

8. General presentation, everything looks like it is done right. Body panels not loose. interior carpets secured, windshield secured, welding looks right, if any, and the car generally looks like it won't fall apart in the first 5 mins.

9. BRAKE LIGHTS WORK!!!!

10. Roll bars if required in spec. Two seat cars like Lola's and cobras require two hoops or one full width bar behind seats, if a passenger rides along at speed, with at least one triangulation per side making it a 3 or 4 point bar. If it has a roll bar it must be mounted with large mounting plates or to the chassis or roll cage.

11. Helmet up to date and spec.

12. Gas cap OK, old monza style flip open/ no inside cap/ discouraged. Must wire closed if old style. (the old ones like mine are a bad idea and I know it. I expect to be called on it sooner or later)

As you can see this is not a race car tech class rules inspection, but a general safety inspection. The above takes about 10-15 mins and isn't as bad as it looks on paper. I am sure I missed something or left off something other people would require but you get the idea. Expect these requirements to become more stringent over time.

Rons car is a perfect example of a safe track car. Less is in fact, less safe, IMHO. But then my opinion is free after all.

Howard, Thank you for your indepth analysis and the stregnth of your opinion to be unbiased.

Based upon Howard's experience, it appears that my car would fail a technical inspection. Their are no mirrors on the car, the roll bar lacks a triangulation brace, and my seats are screwed directly to the aluminum floor. I find it ironic, that the builder who claims to have "extensive automobile manufacturing experience" would cut out my drop floor with steel cross braces, seat belt mounts and a handbrake mount, and then affix my seats by screwing them directly to the aluminum floor, without even a large washer or backing plate. The builder claims it is a high quality job and doesn't understand why I should be concerned or unhappy with the build.

 

[Gregg]

You want an "honest" answer?

No you don't, you want an answer that agrees with your point of view, which is incorrect. Just look at the pictures. What difference do cooling ducts make? That has nothing to do with it. You can see that my car is not sealed at all.
View attachment 57205

I was just trying to give you the benefit of my experience and answer your initial question.

Did you take Johan's advice and check with those guys? I bet not.

You asked a question, would your car pass a track day tech inspection? From the very limited pictures, I would pass your car as would any other inspector I have every ran across.

Sorry Dean, I am looking for honest replies as there has been too much misrepresentation with this project.

 

[Malcolm]

I have not read every post here but from the OP comment I think I would not worry over some missing floor unless it was inside the cabin area. Protection to pipes and cable runs is sensible but only necessary to exposed areas. Full flat enclosed floors to track or road cars is not essential. Stirling Moss ran a Lotus 18 at Monaco with half the body work removed to aid cooling. Seriously exposed about everything!

The bit that would not work here in the UK is the door catch system. The catch would have to be fixed to a chassis part of the car and be a double click to shut. Otherwise it would fail UK road tech (IVA) I believe. Seat belts are also a must have requirement for a road car and very sensible for track car. I would be trying to knock your price down if it were me buying your car to cover these items.

Professional builders will still have their opinions on what is right and wrong, same as any of us here but amateurs are not on the clock for cost efficiency as professionals are and so often can build a far superior product as labour is free.

 

[Johan]

A fairly large percentage of the vehicles presented for a tech inspection do not pass initially
and require some sort of modification which might be minor. Mirrors or seatbelts for example. My rollbar is not braced diagonally and my car passes as-is. The body mounts and door latches cannot be determined from your pictures as to the proper function but not unlike a Sports 2000 where the leading edge of the tail is keyed into the cockpit center section with fiberglass blocks.
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