Chassis tuning - front end grip

Hi All,
Had the first race meeting in my McLaren M1B replica last weekend at the MG Classic meeting at Manfeild, and wanted to pick your brains.
Suspension is basically identical in concept and execution to original GT40. I am running modern racing slicks 330/680/18 rear (20psi cold) and 240/640/17 front (24 psi cold), with about 0.5 neg camber rear and 1.5 neg camber front, 3/16 toe in each side rear, zero front toe, 4.5 inch static rear ride height with a wing that puts about 150kgs on at 150mph, 3 inch front, about 870kg + driver, 37/63 front/rear weight distribution. It has a 930 transaxle with a Kaaz LSD in it.
Springs are 450 rear, 400 front, adjustable roll bars set half way rear, full soft front. I have spax shocks with adjustable rebound only. My rebound “tuning” technique has so far consisted jumping up and down on each end of the car with my full body weight and going up from full soft so that I get just get to the stage where my antics produce no secondary bounce oscillation – i.e. just a bump then a single smooth rebound.
At the back this point is 12 clicks from full soft – about half-way. At the front it feels like rebound could already be too firm with the shock at full-soft, so I left them there.
So now for the question. As my confidence with the car increases, it feels stable and benign at the back, takes full power pretty early off the turn with no oversteer tendency, and is good over bumps. At the front however, real precision is required to get it turned in without too much corner entry speed or it will wash out quite badly. It is very much a slow in fast out machine at the moment, and I would like to improve front end grip. I do not want to achieve this by tightening the rear because that feels really good. Given the front bar is already full-soft, my first move would have been to reduce front rebound if I could – can’t do that either. I guess I could disconnect the front bar and see what that does. Thoughts?
Cheers, Andrew Robertson, Wellington NZ
 
Hi Andrew, I was told by Dave Short from fielding that when he raced at Manfield on slicks etc , on the Countess Countach replicar that sway bars made the car handle worse so he took them off, even his road cars had no bar.


and Bill had this to say a while back

SPRING RATES GT40
What pound rating are the coils on your shocks. They may be stamped or labeled with stickers. I am using Qa-1 with 250 fronts and 350 rears. Tires are Nitto drag radials on rear(335x50x15x114V) and 225s on front with standard air pressure. The ride is very smooth. Not using a sway bar "yet".

Bill MUSSARA GT40
 
Hi All,
Had the first race meeting in my McLaren M1B replica last weekend at the MG Classic meeting at Manfeild, and wanted to pick your brains.
Suspension is basically identical in concept and execution to original GT40. I am running modern racing slicks 330/680/18 rear (20psi cold) and 240/640/17 front (24 psi cold), with about 0.5 neg camber rear and 1.5 neg camber front, 3/16 toe in each side rear, zero front toe, 4.5 inch static rear ride height with a wing that puts about 150kgs on at 150mph, 3 inch front, about 870kg + driver, 37/63 front/rear weight distribution. It has a 930 transaxle with a Kaaz LSD in it.
Springs are 450 rear, 400 front, adjustable roll bars set half way rear, full soft front. I have spax shocks with adjustable rebound only. My rebound “tuning” technique has so far consisted jumping up and down on each end of the car with my full body weight and going up from full soft so that I get just get to the stage where my antics produce no secondary bounce oscillation – i.e. just a bump then a single smooth rebound.
At the back this point is 12 clicks from full soft – about half-way. At the front it feels like rebound could already be too firm with the shock at full-soft, so I left them there.
So now for the question. As my confidence with the car increases, it feels stable and benign at the back, takes full power pretty early off the turn with no oversteer tendency, and is good over bumps.

[[[[[ At the front however, real precision is required to get it turned in without too much corner entry speed or it will wash out quite badly. It is very much a slow in fast out machine at the moment, and I would like to improve front end grip. I do not want to achieve this by tightening the rear because that feels really good. Given the front bar is already full-soft, my first move would have been to reduce front rebound if I could – can’t do that either. I guess I could disconnect the front bar and see what that does. Thoughts?]]]]

Cheers, Andrew Robertson, Wellington NZ

So your saying it pushes /understeer's on turn in on slower corners to the point your not keen to try a faster entry speed. Since it sounds like your not applying any power at the time it happens I have to wonder if the LSD has too much preload.
 

flatchat(Chris)

Supporter
FWIW My RCR T70 turns, points and stops effortlessly --balance is fairly neutral with a slight tendancy for oversteer
40 / 60 FR distribution , 980 kg wet, Hoosier R6 225 50 15 F , 275 50 15 R ~22lb
F -3° camber, 5° castor ~2 mm incl.toe out
R -1.5° camber, 0 castor 0 toe
Ride height ~ 100mm under the floor pan
22 dia front sway bar, 16 dia rear bar soft,---- 650 lb springs F, 450 lb R
Shocks set ATM 50% Bump 20% rebound (AaayVO s)
930 Porsche Trans open diff
Carbied LS6 ~400whp

As there is always room for improvement and until they hand out solid Gold Trophies, I'm very happy with this set up
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Nice! It's great to see some numbers I can use based on very similar weights and spring settings. I wasn't sure where to go on the swaybar set-up for initial testing. I finally decided on some of the smaller or hollow Speedway bars (NASCAR oriented). Initial set-up is a little more costly than bent bars, but with little additional money (cheap bars all over Ebay), adjustability is infinite.
 
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Howard Jones

Supporter
Here's what I would do. One change at a time, record change, report.

1. Set rear shocks to full soft. Then one step at a time add stiffness equally to both ends until it is clear that the car is far too stiff. (loosing time over bumps). back up a click or two from there.

2. Set front ride height to 4 inches. Leave #1 alone. Check how it feels. Better? leave at 4 No. set to 3.5 and move on after test.

3. Add two pounds of air to fronts.

4. Unhook rear anti roll bar. test, record

5. Put back rear bar full soft and unhook front. test, record

6. Wing? reduce rear downforce to near zero, test, record.

I think the rear is over whelming the fronts for grip, and that's being reinforced with the quite low nose rake. The stable rear is appearing good because the center corner speed is still very low as the entry speed is so influenced by the understeer condition.

I would be trying to get the car to turn in first, then roll the corner in a balanced (grip) manner and then go for center off drive. That's just me and its a lot about my driving style but I like a car to be fully under control entering the brake zone, stop straight, predictably turn in, carry the corner speed and then lastly, neutral to slight under steer corner exit. Level the car out, set shocks to the middle of their range, and unhook the rear bar if you want to speed things up a bit.

Sometimes it almost easier to start with street settings and work towards track speed increases from there. This way you will see improvements with each change.
The two things that jump out at me are the large rake delta and the shock settings. Something there. Then the rather large F to R tire contact patch differential.

At some point you will need tire temps.
 
Hi All,

Bit of an update on chassis tuning on the M1b replica. To recap, this has basically been a mission to tune out understeer - car data is in the first email of this thread.

Over 5 meetings I have gradually improved front end grip, mainly by increasing rear roll couple through a steady increase in rear spring rate. I am now 400lb front, 750lb rear, front bar full soft, rear bar medium. This progression to a firmer rear has had the side benefit of stopping the car bottoming on the bumpier circuits as I have also reduced ride height.

Then I started thinking about replacing tyres as part of normal maintenance and realised that I had a hard compound slick on the front (the Dunlop D11 compound control tyre for the now defunct NZV8 class designed for a front engine V8 sedan) and a more suitable D31 compound on the rear. What a rookie mistake running the wrong front rubber. Changed to Hankook Ventus F200 soft compound on the front and it made a large difference.

Ran at a Manfeild club day last weekend - the new rubber is probably the biggest single improvement to the way the car drove since I've had it running. I will now go back and take a fresh look at front camber, bar settings and rebound, and may go up to 850lb rear to see if that is a step too far. Lap times have come down and consistency has gone up.

Cheers, Andrew
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
Thought I'd throw this out being I finally got some test time in:

Front: 350 lb springs, 2.5º neg camber, 6º caster, 1" swaybar
Rear: 450 lb springs, 1.4º neg camber, 2º caster, 3/4" swaybar.

Still could go a bit stiffer on the front combination though (springs/bar).
 
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