Inclose cockpits of F1 and Indy cars?

Howard Jones

Supporter
Well? We are a concentrated group of extremely interested motorsports fans. Some of us even participate at various levels. I can think of no better group of fans to ask this question.

So what do we think? Will covering or partially covering the cockpit change our interest level in this types of car?

I'll offer my humble opinion. These kind of severe injury's and deaths DO effect my interest in the sport. They are taking drivers lives at a time when drivers NOT the cars should be the focus of fan interest. Just look at NASCAR. It's not the car that has made the series so popular.......... its the drivers. Like it or not. Drivers put fans in the seats.

Market the change to a cockpit shield fix as an attempt to protect your divers life. You the fans, hero's life.

Then just do it. Do it with the best engineering fix that can be produced with a fully committed research program. Everybody will need to put some money into the pot for this. F1, Indycar, the sponsors, car constructors, networks, everybody.

So what do you guys think? If this group can't form an opinion nobody can.
 

Keith

Moderator
I would say no to closed cockpits. Many incidents of brain trauma in motor racing are caused by de-acceleration 'G' and closed cockpits would not ameliorate that. There's also the potential for fire safety risks. I have heard a comparison made between LMP cars and a closed F1 cockpit, but the two could not be further away from each other in practice..

I believe the issue should be discussed based on the relatively tiny number of incidents given the number of years that cover the last 4 or 5 fatalities/serious injuries and the amount of racing laps that have been safely completed, on a global scale...Similar to a week when there have been several major air crashes - it's still statistically the safest way to travel.

You cannot save everyone, but I would be happy for the drivers to make their own decisions...and not have a rule enforced upon them.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Here's a interesting article from Racecar Engineering magazine

How easy is it to introduce closed cockpits to F1? - Racecar Engineering

and another

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...afe-F1-car-concepts-allow-racing-weather.html

http://andriesvanoverbeeke.com/3994...n-honda-formula-1-concept-with-closed-cockpit

http://blog.parathyroid.com/race-car-deaths-medical-causes-racing-deaths/

http://sports.usatoday.com/2015/08/24/justin-wilson-crash-indycar-canopies-safety-433304/

If you read all of this stuff like I did the likely outcome will be confusion like mine. There's a lot to be said for the colonel's pov. I still think the jury's out until somebody really looks into the concept with a un biased study.
 
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Damn near a closed car now. Having a complete saftey cell (drag boats) is not such a bad thing. Fire safety could be improved as it would be a closed enviro that could easily be oxygen starved (while the pilot had his own air supply). Hell lets mandate ejection cells too, it would be like the early days when the driver ended up on the pavement while the burning hulk motored on its way.
 

Terry Oxandale

Skinny Man
I'm going to play the dummy in the room. If the helmet stays intact, and the head is against the headrest or near to it, how does a concussion occur by an object hitting the helmet. Reason would say that the head moves little if at all, (unless a glancing blow?). Massa's accident brought this same question to mind.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
A helmet isn't a force field. Any energy that gets fed into it either get absorbed by the shell, foam liner or gets transmitted to your head.

A 20 pound projectile traveling at 200 miles per hour has the potential energy of about 27,000 pounds per foot.

By the way a 30.06 will deliver about 2700 ft/lbs at the mussel
 
FWIW regarding the assumption of driver following - My interest in racing is biased heavily toward vehicle technology and the various compromises that are made by different manufacturers, I have very little interest in the drivers in general.
There have been a couple of standout drivers that I have thought were a cut above in my lifetime but they didn't make me any more or less interested in the sport.
I am not someone that enjoys watching the crashes, I have always been sickened by crash tapes etc.

My current opinion is that I agree broadly with Keith but I am not immovable - not that my opinion makes any difference.

There are more dangerous forms of racing out there and I for one would miss them terribly if the nannies had their way and closed them down.
The world is a better place for the IOM, the Irish road races etc IMO.


Tim.
 

Keith

Moderator
I'm going to play the dummy in the room. If the helmet stays intact, and the head is against the headrest or near to it, how does a concussion occur by an object hitting the helmet. Reason would say that the head moves little if at all, (unless a glancing blow?). Massa's accident brought this same question to mind.


The errant spring from Barichello's Brawn, came through the visor Terry...It was an awful accident with, thankfully, a happy outcome. "For sure" it could have killed him. But a few millimetres to the north and it would have likely glanced off his helmet.

Same with poor Justin. A few millimetres different and the nose cone would have missed him. A tardy pit stop and he wouldn't have been in the same piece of real estate at that exact moment. Such is the lottery of life...

You cannot possibly second guess chance...

If you want open wheel racing drivers to be safe (there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one), best pursuade them not to get into the damned thing to start with. Good luck with that...:)
 

Malcolm

Supporter
For F1 and Indycar you can't see the drivers driving from external coverage of the car so enclosing the cockpit will reduce the risk for the drivers. All the recent deaths have been from impacts to the helmet. Not one had a cause of death stated as internal injuries. Maybe that will be the cause in the future but the numbers will surely be less. I think the guiness book of records states the highest recorded G force in a crash and survived was something like 208g! Mark Blundell had a pretty big stop in Indy car some years back. The drivers at this level are so damnably fit that their tolerance to high G stops must be better than for us mere bags of jelly mortals!

Le Mans cars are fun to watch and they are typically enclosed nowadays and cameras give us the entertainment required for internal coverage.

RIP Justin
 

Keith

Moderator
For F1 and Indycar you can't see the drivers driving from external coverage of the car so enclosing the cockpit will reduce the risk for the drivers. All the recent deaths have been from impacts to the helmet. Not one had a cause of death stated as internal injuries. Maybe that will be the cause in the future but the numbers will surely be less. I think the guiness book of records states the highest recorded G force in a crash and survived was something like 208g! Mark Blundell had a pretty big stop in Indy car some years back. The drivers at this level are so damnably fit that their tolerance to high G stops must be better than for us mere bags of jelly mortals!

Le Mans cars are fun to watch and they are typically enclosed nowadays and cameras give us the entertainment required for internal coverage.

RIP Justin

In the case of Bianchi, his mandatory in-ear sensor registered an almost unbelievable 92g and the car came to a complete stop in under 1 metre.. It is extremely difficult therefore, to imagine that his accident was survivable whether (or not) his helmet actually contacted anything. So violent was the stop that the cockpit safety structure was found in the engine compartment. A closed cockpit would almost certainly been ineffective in those circumstances..
 
My daughter is a registered nurse and sees the odd bike accident aftermath, and she explained to the wife and me that the main cause of the trauma is the brain itself, as its an almost jelly like consistency, it gets for want of a better word sloshed around in your skull, and that's what dose all the damage, truly a sad day,
and I was sitting here thinking that's 4 I can think of from flying objects impacting the helmet, the young lad at Brands Hatch a while ago, Ayton , Massa and now Justin

kaspa
 

Keith

Moderator
That was Henry Surtees John, but that is all over a 20 year period. By the way, when discussing this we should not leave Maria de Villota out of the equation. Although it was not during a race, nevertheless, she died from complications (allegedly) arising out of her collision with a support truck in an open cockpit F1 car.
 
Maybe I could try and fit an old FA18 Canopy to my Ralt, and report back. Otherwise, here is one that the Playstation kids will remember...
 

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For my 2 cents worth, I'm a keen NHRA fan as well and the new closed in Top Fuel cars have not made the spectacle any less spectacular. And if you want to talk about fires then those guys have more fires than any motor sport not to mention junk flying through the air etc etc. And G' forces, they get 6gs both ways with every run if they don't crash, I'm for anything that makes the sport safer without compromising the spectacle and the speed.

Cheers Leon
 
Until just opening this thread today - I had not heard the news of Justin, I saw the 'crash' and figured he was fine as I closed out the (recorded) broadcast of the Pocono round.

I havent been to an Indycar race in decades, but since a friend is now an engineer at Honda Racing in SoCal and the championship (was at least) close between Montoya and Rahal I thought I go hang with my friend and check it out.

For good reason my interest in the event just won't be the same now. RIP Justin you were one of the class acts in IndyCar, we will miss you at Sonoma.

So sad.
 
Take into consideration that FOD strikes to the drivers cockpit are a fluke, so many factors come into play - wrong place at the wrong time can sum it up.

I watched the race and from what I saw I'm not sure a deflector / screen would have saved Justin's life. All sports come with consequence, pitchers taking a line-drive to the face, do we force them to where a face mask and helmet?

I'm all-in for safety but whether it's a 95 mph fastball or racing at 200+ mph, change will only come if the athletes buy into it.

Chris
 
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