Open wheel track car in a closed minded world....

[Cliff Beer]

Just wondering if I'm going down a misguided path here....

Background is that I've had a crazy notion of buying an old (80's...) Indy car chassis and putting an SBF into it and having some fun on the track. Let's leave aside the problems of re-using an old Indy car (cracks in chassis, etc.) for the moment. The idea is something like a cheap F5000 car. Old Indy cars without any special provenance (minus drivetrain) seem to be going for $30-75K. Put in an SBF and a porsche G50 and you're going really fast for maybe $50-75K.

Trouble is, it seems like open wheeled cars are not accepted at most general track day events. Porsche club doesn't want 'em at track days nor does the alfa club or the mustang club etc. Vintage racing doesn't want odd ducks like that out there either.

Am I trying to do something which is just plain a bad idea?

 

[Pat]

It sound pretty cool to me. I think it depends on the the sponsoring organization so you may want to shop them and try HSR and Brian Redman's Targa Sixty Six

 

[John]

Sounds like a lot of fun.
Around here there are several tracks that people can pay a membership fee to join and run whatever they have pretty much whenever they want. Maybe something like that in your area?

 

[Fran Hall RCR]

There is a brand new F5000 style car coming to the US market very soon that would provide the scratch to your itch....so some of think its a good idea !!!

 

[Howard Jones]

Why not go one step farther and put a closed body over it. The result is really a 5 liter CANAM car. Then it would be welcome in most groups.

You should talk to Mesa. We have discussed this topic at length several times. He has even looked at a couple of cars. The best options seam to be the Dalara indy cars from a few years ago. Lots of them out there cheap and a LSX will fit right in. There are even LSX to Xtrax GRBX adapter plates available. Using the indycar GRBX is pretty much a given because of the rear suspension pick up points are on the GRBX.

We always come out to about 60K$ total when we work up a budget. The unknown cost would be development. But that would be half the fun.

Do I think this is a good idea? Purely on a cost basis maybe no. But from a interesting fun thing to do.............hell yes.

 

[Jac Mac]

Ol Jack Ondrack who owns the TVR runs a 90's Dallara Indy Car in the SVRA series that run at RA & Indy etc... I get the impression that it/they require a fair bit of spanner work, almost too bloody quick for older guys. IIRC he has repowered with alloy block SBC sprint car stuff to cut costs & keep RPM etc down. Don't know how well budgets work in series like this, seems there are those with an endless $$$ supply who always have the latest & greatest in tires & motors... talent does not seem to progress at same rate. But like all of these series your only racing for chocolate fish anyway!

 

[Troy]

Do it! I have an all-carbon F3000 car that I am currently fitting a Ferrari 360 V8 into. I chose this engine as it's very short (for a V8) - about 180mm shorter than an LSX. I'd have gone the LS route myself, if I wasn't limited for length. That said, it would have been cheaper to get an LS engine and a 6spd seq racing trans like the TXL250 from Elite Racing Transmissions in the UK, then re-do the suspension mounting points. The output flanges on that trans are much further forward, so you can play around with the bellhousing / oil tank set up to make it all line up again.

Try an steer clear of anything with carbon suspension, just for peace of mind!

 

[Richard]

Cliff, What came to mind for me is just cover the wheels. I would think "they" don't want a lot of rocks in the air.

Richard

 

[John]

Guys the reasons tin tops don't like open wheelers out there with them, is a purely safety reason, they cant see them, because they are so low you get up behind a tintop and he cant see you, then when you pull out and go bye, you frighten the crap out of them but thats another issue, lol.

kaspa

 

[Randy V]

There's a lot more danger in racing open wheel cars in traffic.. Very little "rubbing" goes without someone taking a very wild trip into the air or worse.
If they ever do gain wide acceptance by the Track-Day organizations, it will likely be with very strict passing rules on top of qualifications / credentials to show that the owner-driver is fully qualified to drive that car in traffic.

Oh - and an additional liability waiver form will most likely be required...

I've seen an Indy Car conversion and it was pretty nice, but the owner had to build a chassis to accept the engine and transaxle.
Most of the Indy cars I have seen use the engine and transaxle as stressed members - which I think would eliminate the Porsche transaxle (but I could be wrong)...

 

[Julian]

What you are proposing to do sounds very much like an Indy Lights car, which typically run an SBC. I think you can probably buy a track ready car straight up for the money your are expecting to put into a build. Then you have a car that has a class to run in HSR, SVRA or other vintage sanctioning bodies. Although it is worth mentioning that many of those entities require a 'Super license' once you get into the really quick Indy, F1 cars etc.

Even a roller (less engine) would usually come with the transaxle as it's a stressed member and mostly they are Hewlands (or at least use Hewland internals). The caveat with a straight engine swap is these cars are engineered with precision, so you can easily upset or destroy handling characteristics.

I would suggest you at least look at purchasing a vintage race car, you can enjoy it knowing that you'll get your investment back some day, so it's just interim running costs. I run a Swift Formula Atlantic eligible for SCCA and vintage racing, which here on the West coast opens up more venues. I recently sold a Reynard 90H FA ready to run with 265 miles on the engine for $23K, so I know you could be in a competitive open wheel car for reasonable coin. Of course any racer will tell you it's not the cost of the car but the upkeep, it's a $7K rebuild on an FA engine every 1500 miles, which will see me two seasons.

Julian

 

[Cliff Beer]

Thank you fellas, this is all good advice. Will digest it and come up with some plan....which hopefully makes sense. I did bid on an early 80's Indy car chassis (with gearbox) a year or so ago and bid it up to about $30K before somebody else bought it in the last seconds of the (ebay) auction. That was getting pretty close to being committed to it. I also have most of a flat crank SBF worked out...which would be interesting power plant for such a car.

Damn, tempting to just buy an Indy Lights car.....would be nice to not have to engineer and wrench on a project for a year before ever getting behind the wheel.....

 

[Howard Jones]

Here

2003 Dallara IRL INDY CAR- gearbox is an x-trac 6 spd seq Spec Sheet

Several on this website

 

[Julian]

Something like this will get you instantly on track;

1986 March 86A For Sale

 

[Howard Jones]

Here's a motor for ya

Chevy 2002 GEN II IRL 700 HP Spec Sheet

That March is just about right for ya.

 

[Mike Tanner]

There are a ton of great open wheel race cars that are capable of significant speed, both vintage and more modern, that can be purchased for the kind of money you are proposing Cliff.

From a practical perspective, if you want is track time with an open wheel car, you have two general options: 1) compete in a race sanction that recognizes and attracts specific formula cars (SVRA, SCCA, etc) or 2) become a member of a country club circuit as proposed in post #3 to run esoteric cars that are not recognized as to belonging to a recognized formula.

I have found it difficult and infrequent to locate a track or sponsoring organization that allows sessions for any open wheel cars to participate in general track days. I do not feel comfortable being on track with sedans in an open wheel car for the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread (even though I have been in SVRA race groups that had GT40's mixed with Formula B and F!).

Bottom line; If it is a build challenge that stimulates you, I would think a tin top would have significantly more track day options than an open wheel car.

 

[Mike Drew]

15 years ago a friend of mine had an Indy car with a SBC. He had all the advantages including partial ownership of a private race track (Motorsports Ranch outside of Dallas). But he quickly realized it was a hopeless venture. For one thing, it absolutely required a pit crew. It was maintenance intensive, expensive to run, he couldn't actually race it, and couldn't drive it in open track events. He quickly moved on.

Julian is right. If you want to drive an open wheel car on the track, the only practical thing to do is buy a race car you can actually race, and then go race it.

Probably best not to dive into the deep end of the pool either. Start off with something manageable like a Formula Ford--the incredible speed and performance of even a 'slow' car like that would likely surprise you. Initially you will probably get your ass handed to you by the other drivers in the races, too. A couple of seasons experience would be very helpful before you jumped into a Formula Atlantic or F2 or whatever....

 

[Cliff Beer]

Thanks again guys, this is all very good advice. It appears it is a difficult road ahead with an odd duck ex-Indy car SBF. I'm not too surprised, had seen some indicators of these types of issues and considerations along the way so far.

The genisis of the idea was a friend of mine some years ago had an old Alfa Romeo F1 car from the late 70's. He didn't do anything with it because of the complexities and expense of running a vintage F1 car. I thought "hey, wouldn't it be great to have a car like this but with a much less complicated drivetrain?" Seemed simple at the time.

Thanks, will report on developments. Meanwhile, I'm working on my Lotus Esprit SBF conversion....

 

[Ian Anderson]

http://racing-school.co.uk/driving/intensive-race-training/

How about starting with something like this and then progressing up

Gets seat tiime without a lot of outlay

Ian