Superlite Coupe... Drivetrain... - Page 2

Vega · 06-17-08, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conquest351

I wonder what could be done to make them more fuel efficient...

Nothing. To avoid running lean and detonating, rotaries love to run rich. This equals opening the wallet WIDE at the pump!

Tim Kay · 06-17-08, 06:04 PM

I am also in support of Wakels. Five years experience with Turbo 13B in a sand car, one rebuild due to apex seals. I love the power band, 475 rear real hp and 425+ torque and yes it's in the higher rpm range. All the above Crash33 writes I would have to agree. I have also seen a couple 3 rotors in excess of 800 hp that rocked (which have more low end torque than the 13B). Until you get seat time with one do you really get what the thrill is. When on the "pipe" they pull like a raped ape. It's not until I run up next to a twin turbo LS6 do I get concerned about losing a race.

Howard Jones · 06-17-08, 06:19 PM

What does it cost to build a 500HP (crank) 91 octaine 12B that will last 50-60 K miles?

CRASH33 · 06-17-08, 06:59 PM

In all fairness, the real issue why I have no trouble with the torque of the rotary is that my vehicle only weighs 1200 pounds. Like Tim, that's in my sand car. My race vehicles are closer to 2000 lbs and about 130 HP in IT trim (SCCA rules) and 200 in GT trim. They do tend to do better against the piston cars on wide open tracks where rpms can be kept up.

As far as the sand car goes, I use first gear for sand drag starts and tight duning, but otherwise I just leave it in second and push the go pedal when needed. Because of the weight, I can pretty much break the tires lose at will. The dune buggy really spoils me.

As far as cost goes, the piston engines will cost less up front due to all the available after market pieces. If I wanted to build a cheap 500 HP that was light, I would probably opt for the Subaru. 350 without many mods, and a little turn up of the boost and 500 is pretty easily attainable. V 8 would probably be my next choice if weight wasn't a factor and cost was. Then the rotary. A 20B in core condition is something like $2000 now, and to get the proper turbos, injection and all running gear it's probably gonna run another $10k, so a minimum of $12k for a mostly stock 20B. My 12A, if I didn't have numerous parts laying around, would have cost in the neighbor hood of $15k. It has a lot of ceramic in it and quite a few of the "tricks".

I DO know Roland, but haven't seen him in years as our local track has, for the most part, closed.

I would think a 20B could be easily made to produce 500HP and last 100,000 miles. The Subaru, probably 30-40k miles. The rotary is definitely more expensive, but probably not if you're gonna put a lot of miles on it. In truthfulness, the V8 is probably the sweet spot for most people as far as price, HP, and longevity.

Nothing sounds like a rotary at full tilt though.

Fran Hall RCR · 06-17-08, 09:15 PM

One of the pleasures of the SL-C is that you are not tied to any one engine or trans package...
I would love to see a Rotary in one but I would need to have a reese hitch to tow the fuel tanker behind.
I had a supercharged 13b in a 911 ...because one of my pals bet me it could not be done...fun stuff.

Brian Hamilton · 06-17-08, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gt40fran

One of the pleasures of the SL-C is that you are not tied to any one engine or trans package...
I would love to see a Rotary in one but I would need to have a reese hitch to tow the fuel tanker behind.
I had a supercharged 13b in a 911 ...because one of my pals bet me it could not be done...fun stuff.

Did that 13b happen to have a Camden Supercharger on it? John Camden works with Motion Dynamics, the shop I used to work at in Austin, on special projects and doing port work on cylinder heads. What an awesome guy and absolutely full of knowledge. That guy has forgotten more about automotive engineering than I could ever know. LOL

Fran Hall RCR · 06-17-08, 11:22 PM

Yes it did.....

Rich E. · 06-18-08, 03:06 PM

Crash33,

Sorry nothing for sale here. I was merely providing a place where a brand new LS3 based V8 could be had for cheap.

I wasn't trying to offend with my opinion of a V8 being a better option for the SL-C. It's just what I believe. Yes rotaries had thier day and are still one of the best sounding engines I've ever heard but currently how many teams are running a V8 vs. a rotary in most racing catagories. Let's not even mention aftermarket support. I also agree that Rotories are capable of making alot of HP/TQ but c'mon, Let's talk about turboing a LS based V8. They are easily over 1000HP. not that that's a very good idea for such a light car. I say if you want 5-600 rwhp stay N/A V8

BTW I believe in what I preach.

CRASH33 · 06-18-08, 06:56 PM

So do I. (Practice what I preach) Here's a pic of me working on a LMP1 Lola in 2006 at Utah.
Photo Gallery Popup - Click the image to close

If you look at the driver stats on the main page you will see that Lewis has won extensive SCCA titles with Mazdas. Myself and the now crew chief of the ALMS team were the only guys building and setting up the cars back then. Including the engines. I left that field to follow a career in finance, but still keep in touch. Yes, you could call me a has been. If it didn't happen yesterday, in the racing world, it's of course considered old news, but the experience I had in rotaries before that team, as well as with them, makes me very respectful of the Wankel.

The Ricardo does come in sequential right?
I will concede that the V8 makes the most sense for most people. I didn't mean anything offensive to you with the comments above, it's just that I have quite a bit of respect for the engines and it is a common thing for others to not understand them very well. I got that sense from your post and just wanted the record straight.

I've caught the fever on the SLC and will be contacting my buddies when they get back from Le Mans to see what they can hook me up with. Then in a couple months, if the economy doesn't take a poop and I manage to get the projects done my wife says I must before I start something like this again, I MAY have an order to put in.

I've been keeping an ear out for a used Grand Am roller, then saw a GT 40 rep and started searching the internet, then saw the SLC and it's exactly what I was looking for.

I will admit that I will probably use an LS3 because of the cost. It's alot of bang for the $$ and I can't stand to see another 20B modified to build comparable HP. Pretty sure the tranny will be a Ricardo unless the buddies can hook me up big time with a used Hewland or Mendeola has a fire sale. LOL

Mesa · 06-18-08, 08:48 PM

The Ricardo has conventional shift action, not sequential. There are other Ricardo models of course and some of them may be sequential. I agree those Wankels can sound hot.

Brian Hamilton · 06-18-08, 09:16 PM

The only good sounding rotaries I have heard is the 20b's and the 26b's (3 & 4 rotors). All the 13b's I have heard around here sound like pissed off bumble bees. LOL Although, once the turbo kicks in, they sound sick!!!

CRASH33 · 06-19-08, 11:58 AM

Well, one way or the other, I will have sequential. I have a buddy who specializes in converting trannies to sequential.....ANY tranny. Here's his web site.

AJ SPEEDSHIFT, 8843 Winter Gardens Blvd, Lakeside, CA 92040, (619)561-9885

He just did a sequential conversion for a Leno Corvette. Custom setups are around $2000+ but the work is very high quality, so if any of you want a normal box made into a sequential, this is the guy to talk to.

The sound of a rotary is much like the taste of cheap beer. It needs to be acquired.