Superlite Coupe... Drivetrain...

Brian Hamilton · 05-30-08, 11:22 AM

Ok,
As I said in another thread, after seeing the black SLC, I'm in love. I was all for the SLR about a month ago. Cheap, fast, inexpensive to maintain. But now... That black car stole my heart. Why did you do it Fran?

You had to go and mess up all my plans and now I gotta figure out how to build one of these. Here's my thinking...

Engine: 26b 4 rotor Wankel
Induction : Single GT60 turbocharger
Transmission: Ricardo 6-speed transaxle
Fuel: Gasoline or E85 (Flexfuel)
ECU: Big Stuff II

I think that's about it. Here's a few videos that pretty much solidified my decision for the 4 rotor...

YouTube - Queen Street Racing Quad Rotor 1664 HP !!!

YouTube - Re: scoot rx7

YouTube - RX7 4 Rotor Crazy

YouTube - Mazda 787B at Mazda Miyoshi prooving ground (1)

YouTube - Mazda 787B at Mazda Miyoshi prooving ground (2)

YouTube - Mazda 787B at Mazda Miyoshi prooving ground (3)

Sorry, I'm just kinda in love with the sound of that engine and the look of the SLC. Makes me all tingly!!

Laters,

Brian

Mesa · 05-30-08, 12:40 PM

Sweeeet
I like that turbo, how long will one of these things last at 1000HP? Would you be rebuilding it every 10 hours? I like the sound of the turbo better than the NA, the NA is a little too much noise for me (maybe I'm not as deaf as I thought from all those years of racing). Probably really light, eh?

the difference between the SLR and SLC......? a good chunk of money.

Brian Hamilton · 05-30-08, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesa

Sweeeet
I like that turbo, how long will one of these things last at 1000HP? Would you be rebuilding it every 10 hours? I like the sound of the turbo better than the NA, the NA is a little too much noise for me (maybe I'm not as deaf as I thought from all those years of racing). Probably really light, eh?

the difference between the SLR and SLC......? a good chunk of money.

Yeah, I calculated everything I'd need to build a sweet 500hp SLR and I'd be at about $30-35k all said & done. Now the engine alone for the SLC would run $12-20k depending on how crazy you go with it according to Pineapple Racing. They're the guys who sent me a quote for it. I would bet that driving it around daily, low boost, you're at 600hp or more. At mid boost you're probably at 700hp and at high bost you're over 1,000 pretty easily depending on fuel used.
The whole engine with all accessories and turbo and everything was about 400-500 lbs if I remember right. A 302 weighs 500lbs and a 351 is 550lbs if memory serves correct with no accessories, just long block. I know the 4.6 SOHC & DOHC engines weigh more than a 460 though.
But you said it, the difference is a big chunk of cash. The kit from Fran would be $44k plus $20k for the engine (let's overestimate) plus about $10k for the transaxle, plus $2500 for the ECU, $1800 for the turbo, about $3k for intake & exhaust fabrication, $2k for the intercooler(s), few hundred for the injectors, and probably $3k for misc. stuff I can't think about at the moment. That adds up to $86,800 +/- (added $500 for injectors). That's an expensive build! But good lord... I know there are easier ways to go about it, easier ways to power it, all that kinda stuff. But I just need to get this outta my head or just get it done.

First things first, I gotta sell some property!!!

Chad · 05-30-08, 01:15 PM

I agree with you Brian. If I had the money (which I don't) I would upgrade from the roadster to the SL-C. Are you planning on getting the coupe or the "Le Mans" style? Either way, that's going to be one sweet ride and sound pretty good too.

Brian Hamilton · 05-30-08, 01:45 PM

If and when I get it, it'll be the coupe. I'm not, nor have I ever been, a convertible fan. They look good, but not for me. My fiance wants one but I keep telling her I ain't buying it. LOL

Anyway, I have to sell some real estate before this becomes a reality, but just sharing my thoughts. My cat comes up to me in the middle of the night and purrs, it sounds like a friggin idling 4 rotor. Haha I think I'm really going crazy...

What other crazy drivetrain ideas do you guys have? Here's one to discuss..

Engine: Gas Turbine
Fuel: Propane
Benefit: Light weight, no need for a fuel pump, extremely clean burning, insane sound & power to weight ratio.

Any thoughts? Remember that guy putting one into a Testerrossa?

Vega · 05-30-08, 04:21 PM

I also love the 26B. That sound and RPM range is amazing. There is a hefty price to pay to get such a great, unique engine. Here are a few pro's and con's:

Pro's:
High RPM, incredibly fast revving with good power band.
Among the best sounding engines in the world (subjective).
How awesome would it be to say you have SLC with a 26B?! I would say that would be close to the ultimate setup.

Cons's, versus let's say a built LS7:
Much greater cost for a 26B with turbo.
Less low end grunt, turbo lag if large turbo used.
Reliability I think almost everyone would say is less then a LS7.
I wouldn't be surprised with similar power levels the LS7 would use HALF as much petrol. Rotaries are very inefficient.
Repair/rebuild would be very hard to source and very expensive.
Have to cram a 26B AND turbo/piping under a SLC hatch somehow.

If I had unlimited funds I would go with the 26B. Alas, I do not. Is there such thing as a 26B/Ricardo adaptor plate? Not sure how hard that would be to fab. In the end though, a built LS7 has just so much going for it. Especially for the money.

Brian Hamilton · 05-30-08, 05:14 PM

Have you priced the LS7's? From what I found the complete deal with drysump system and wiring was around $16k brand new. I can't remember where I found that. Anyway, you're right on the Cons.

Rotaries are known to be inefficient. Sux.
Turbo lag, well that's where you get into proper turbo sizing. When I worked at the performance shop in Austin, we made sure all the turbo's we installed were of proper size. I was so sick of seeing these Supras and RX7s with these enormous T88's and couldn't spool them to save their lives. LOL This thing would have a Garrett turbocharger of sufficient size. The GT60 in that video isn't that big of a turbo. I mean it's large, but since working in the Ford world, I have seen turbo's that would suck your body through them. We did a Mustang with a GT40-67R that put 700+ hp to the ground and it was a 4.6 SOHC. I figure a GT60 on a 4 rotor would have sufficient heat & exhaust velocity to spool it relatively quickly, plus the relationship I have with Precision Turbo & Engine, I feel pretty confident they'd make whatever I asked for. Those guys rock by the way.
As far as packaging, I'd think it would be pretty easy. The engine's basically a tube for lack of a better word. You have your exhaust on one side, intake on the other, it should be pretty easy. Of course I say "Should". Haha I don't know, it's just another one of those crazy ideas Brian has twirling around in his head...
I do think it would sound insane, feel insane, and look insane. Perfect choice for the SLC in my opinion.

Hell, maybe we could get together a group buy for them from Pineapple Racing? Haha

Paul Osborn · 06-02-08, 05:57 AM

A LS3 motor w/436hp runs a little over 6K. A cam change would probably get you to 500hp.

GM Performance LS3, 6.2L Crate Engines

Sam · 06-08-08, 07:25 PM

Wow, that really is an awesome sounding engine. I think that kind of sound fits the SLC design nicely and it would be something very different for sure.

Did you click on the related video of the Mazda Furai? That thing is beautiful!

Anyway, if I ever do build something like the SLC I would probably want it for street use, so another con I can see with the 26b is that I think you'd probably draw a lot of attention from cops with something that sounded like that. I wonder if it would even be legal from a noise ordinance standpoint?

John · 06-08-08, 09:30 PM

... so where do you get 4 rotor engines at?

Vega · 06-09-08, 10:43 AM

pineappleracing.com builds them new. Awesome engine, but my biggest concern would be the huge amount of fuel it would consume. I would bet just driving around town you would see single digits with this engine.

Brian Hamilton · 06-09-08, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vega

pineappleracing.com builds them new. Awesome engine, but my biggest concern would be the huge amount of fuel it would consume. I would bet just driving around town you would see single digits with this engine.

Yes, that is correct, both parts. LOL Pineapple Racing does build the engines to order. The quote I got from them was $12,000-$20,000 depending on how crazy you wanted to go. As far as fuel economy, I wonder if the new Renisis engine would work to make a 4 rotor from, I hear they have great fuel economy.

Rich E. · 06-17-08, 01:36 AM

IMO, stay away from the rotary for more than a couple of reasons:

1) Rotories are extremely heavy due to design and material.
2) They are very unreliable, get it hot once and the apex seals start to break down. At that point start saving for a rebuild becuase its only a matter of time.
3) IMO they are outdated when compared to other engines currently on the market.
4) The HP/TQ output is very "peaky" and too high in the rpm range. Turbo lag would exagerate the problem.

Go with a LS based V8. Scoggin Dicky sells a "El torro grande" long block LS3 bored/stroked to 427 and could easily make 550-600 rwhp N/A.

My current track car is a 1994 Mazda RX7 with a LS6 V8 tucked inside. It was done for all the reasons mentioned above. BTW, my car gained only 48 lbs. compared to the 13b and turbo system that came out.

Just my .02
Rich.

Jac Mac · 06-17-08, 03:59 AM

There were supposed to be a bunch of Ally Chebbies possibly coming up for sale in Australia due to a botch up on one of the Holden Production lines- Craig W might know more, or possibly the ockers are trying to keep it to themselves

Cannot remember what it was but thought it sounded fairly minor to fix at the time.

Craig White · 06-17-08, 06:30 AM

The only quantity of engines I know that might be coming up for sale are LS3 engines. They are being pulled out and replaced by LS7 engines before the cars are delivered to customers.

See this article: For Sale: 200 slightly-used HSV LS3 Drivetrains â€“ Car Reviews, News & Advice - CarPoint Australia

Is this what you are thinking of?

Trevor Booth · 06-17-08, 08:33 AM

My 20B twin turbo has 400Nm of torque at 1500 RPM and the torque curve is flat thereafter- you call that peaky ??

there is little or no turbo lag with the sequential TT set up correctly

apex seals - use the right ones and temp does not destroy them

CRASH33 · 06-17-08, 03:51 PM

A little backround. I have raced rotaries for decades and have quite a bit of hands on experience with them. I would like to address the following posts as I feel NOTHING could be further from the truth.

1) Rotories are extremely heavy due to design and material.

Actually the HP to weight is very high. I can lift a short block by myself. It weighs about 200 lbs max. HP #s on even the smallest, 1200cc engines, are over 225 when done right normally aspirated. Put that up against any other 1200cc piston engine and not only will the HP #s be higher on a rotary, but rebuild intervals are 3 to 1.

2) They are very unreliable, get it hot once and the apex seals start to break down. At that point start saving for a rebuild becuase its only a matter of time.

The apex seals have NOTHING to do with issues of failure due to overheating. The problems come in with the "rubber bands" that act as water seals around the outside of the engine, seal springs going soft, and the chrome plating of the rotor housing deteriorating. Apex seals can be an issue as they are, from the factory, made out of an extremely high carbon steel that is very brittal and will break at the first sign of detonation. Overheating can lead to detonation, but the death is sudden, not slow as suggested. Ceramic apex seals solve this completely. A set is around $1200. Most people don't understand that rotaries require 50% of their cooling to be done with the oil. Run too small an oil cooler and your rotary will be DONE in very short order.

3) IMO they are outdated when compared to other engines currently on the market.

Actually they were WAY ahead of their time. Put half as much R&D into rotaries as has been thrown at piston engines and the results would be amazing. Only today are piston engines approaching the same HP to weight ratios that rotaries have seen for the past 40 years or so.

4) The HP/TQ output is very "peaky" and too high in the rpm range. Turbo lag would exagerate the problem.

Let me just say that I have never done a turbo and from my observations what Brian says is exactly true. Many people over turbo their engine thinking bigger is better. My 12A builds 228 RWHP on 91 pump gas normally aspirated and whoops the V8 cars. Did I mention I only have a two speed tranny? My power band is sooooooo wide it's all I need. Usable power is from about 2500 to 8500. That's a 6000 rpm powerband that is MORE than torquey enough in my 1200 pound vehicle.I get them out of the hole every time and when they have to shift two or three times, I shift once. Yeah fuel milage sux, but if you are really worried about that you would be driving a Geo, not a supercar.

Sounds like Rich E has a vested interest in selling V8s?

CRASH33 · 06-17-08, 03:59 PM

BTW- I have a 20B sitting in my shop. I just can't bring myself to do anything with it. I believe it to be a collectors item. I have never seen a 4 rotor that didn't have a price tag on it of around $100,000. The Pineapple thing must be some homebuilt job, not the factory design. Factory 4 rotors ran without turbos. They had extremely long variable length intakes made out of phenolic. Just the intakes would cost $20k.

Maybe a Superlite would fit that 20B......