360 Ferrari Engine With Twin Turbos? (Attn: Mesa?)

[Kevin Nelson]

Hi all,

My initial plan for an SL-C would be to grab a stock LS3 to throw in and go have fun for a while.

At the same time, I have realized that (like Troy) a hypercar deserves a true hypercar sound. After searching and reading the threads, we know that the 360 motor will fit in the SL-C. Which is sweet. They are all over the web for $7-8k.

But as long as we're gonna do it, might as well do it right. That means swapping to low compression slugs and doing a twin turbo setup. There are plenty of twin turbo 360's out there in the 600-800 range, which is killer. Build the SL-C, drop the LS3, go driving but start the motor project from hell at the same time.

The question is (and for those like Mesa who have dry fitted a 360 motor): can you shoehorn hairdryers and plumbing in too?

Check this out: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J6KppH6Es4[/ame]

 

[Mesa]

Should be no problem.

 

[Mark]

Ferrari engine will come with the huge price to maintain and service.

 

[Kevin Nelson]

Ferrari engine will come with the huge price to maintain and service.

I've been researching that actually. 360 engines are apparently a VERY good motor from Ferrari as regards to service requirements and fragility.

Ferrari 360 and Maintenance - 6speedonline.com Forums

Since I'm doing a six speed, all the F1 stuff goes out the window. Oil changes are oil changes, I know it's a bit more involved, but we can follow the YouTube videos. And things like lifter adjustments and such are there, but the fact that they are much more accessible in the SL-C should make things easier.

Finally, if you're getting the motor for $7k, it's not really any pricier than an SBC or SBF. It's just a motor. So I'm not gonna be nervous around it like I would a $50k exotic motor...

 

[Mark]

I had a 328 GTS, but maybe the 360 is not as costly for parts and service. Good luck.

 

[Alex]

I've been researching that actually. 360 engines are apparently a VERY good motor from Ferrari as regards to service requirements and fragility.

Ferrari 360 and Maintenance - 6speedonline.com Forums

Since I'm doing a six speed, all the F1 stuff goes out the window. Oil changes are oil changes, I know it's a bit more involved, but we can follow the YouTube videos. And things like lifter adjustments and such are there, but the fact that they are much more accessible in the SL-C should make things easier.

Finally, if you're getting the motor for $7k, it's not really any pricier than an SBC or SBF. It's just a motor. So I'm not gonna be nervous around it like I would a $50k exotic motor...

So the base engine is $7k, but what's the all-in cost to get it on the street? (meaning ecu, tuning, twin turbos, initial maintenance of the original engine, etc...)

 

[John]

I bought a used 360 drive-train for a similar project, make sure you check the lifters as they clog up quite easily and with 40 of them at $88 apiece it adds up quickly.

 

[JohnC]

I bought a used 360 drive-train for a similar project, make sure you check the lifters as they clog up quite easily and with 40 of them at $88 apiece it adds up quickly.

Ouch!! The hydraulic lifters for my 550 are only $22 each. Were yours 33mm diameter? At $88 from the dealer, or $82 from Ricambi it'd be worth a shot trying to rebuild them. Try Dave Helms @ Scuderia Rampante Innovations for rebuilding.

Also, Eurospares has them new for 34 GBP, however make sure they're "new", not NOS.

 

[thackl]

Anybody considered BMW V8/10 for exotic sound? My buddies E92 M3 sounds great at full tilt..might be good alternative to turbo'd 360

 

[James]

The S63 V8 (iirc), is a hot head engine, and has a crossover exhaust, like a set of 180's, but considering it only has to go a few inches to get to the other side, it is pretty easy to do, and it runs with 2 twin scroll turbos.

I'm actually wondering how hard it would be to swap the heads on a VK56vd I just got. That way the exhaust would be in the middle of the bank. Crossover/180's would be a piece of cake then.

 

[Tim]

Don't forget the cost of the electronics to drive the motor. Make sure you can use the existing Ferrari electronics, because otherwise it's a programmable ECU ($3k upwards), lots of sensors and most of all, designing and building the harness to connect it all. I had to do it for my 911 GT3 motor and it involves tracking down lots of little things like connectors and just understanding more about how to run a motor, at least in my case. I did keep the engine harness intact, replacing and newly wiring just a couple sensor from that.

It's a fun project to design the electronics and harness, but it's a TON of work. This is "solved" for you with the other crate motors.

 

[Cliff Beer]

I'd be concerned that $7K 360 motor was in usable shape or not....

If you're going to put in some low compression pistons you'll be checking the crank, giving it a line bore, bearings, wrist pin work, dealing with cylinder wall issues, then you've got gaskets, valve train belts, yada yada. At ferrari prices you're looking at another $6-8K in parts/service easily plus the cost of the LC pistons/rings...which will be another $3K. Your $7K engine is now a $15-20K engine minimum before you can start to think about the turbo plumbing and engineering. Add electronics and tuning to that and there's another $3-4K. That's going to be a $40K motor before she's running right. Easy. LS3 is going to be a bargain comparatively, and a whole lot less work. Just my $.02.

I've got two f-cars in my garage and it's always an ass raping drill just for parts costs whenever something needs to be fixed.

 

[Ian]

I would not stuff a Ferrari motor in the vehicle that has timing belts if I had the choice. (Ferrari reccomends a three year timing belt replacement, and during access folks typically replace tensioners, cam seals, etc) Stick to F430 power or newer. Ferrari reliability really improved from the 430 onward.
Just my opinion.

 

[Luke S]

I grumble sometimes on the P-car tax, but if that same analogy was used on F-cars.....you might as well live in France!

I think Ian's idea of using a Maserati engine is ideal! You get Ferrari engineering with a discount on the F-tax on buy-in.

 

[Cliff Beer]

I would not stuff a Ferrari motor in the vehicle that has timing belts if I had the choice. (Ferrari reccomends a three year timing belt replacement, and during access folks typically replace tensioners, cam seals, etc) Stick to F430 power or newer. Ferrari reliability really improved from the 430 onward.
Just my opinion.

Ian is right. the 430 engine has 100 more horsepower, and timing chains instead of timing belts. You almost wouldn't need twin blowers on it with a 430 engine.

 

[Troy Truglio]

I looked at doing something similar with a 360 engine, but I wanted NA power. I have had turbo power and it is fun in a straight line for sure, but felt it took away from the experience for me, but each person is different. Here is a quick break down of cost as I see it. This assumes you will do all the work yourself.

7k 360 engine
1.5k custom je pistons and rings
2k rebuild items- lifters, gaskets, ect at f car prices
2k megasquirt pro3 ecu and wideband to run it.
1k tune and dyno time for stand alone
5-10k twin turbo setup -
I see 20-25k in this setup easy if you re doing most of the work. If not then probably add another 10k.





Now if I did it all over again at this point I think the v12 550 option might be a better option now that I know Fran can do it.

 

[Ian]

I agree on the NA setup.

I have a fresh 4.2 Maser and electronics sitting here ready for install (intake plenum already reversed and mounted), I must admit there are 2 ball bearing turbos sitting here on the toolbox as well. My plan is to get the car sorted with NA power and see if that satisfies. If not twin turbos and liquid intercoolers will be stage 2.
I have alot of experience with F-cars and I am not impressed with the reliability prior to the 430.
Maserati 4.2 power is essentially a 430 engine with a cross-plane crank and shorter intake plenum. Of course it too has timing chains (far more reliable). This is why I chose the setup. Lets also not forget the SOUND...

:thumbsup:

 

[Ian]

I sent this to Fran and he said I was a warped individual

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/gentlemen-start-her-engine-car-news


:stunned:

 

[Josh]

I agree on the NA setup.

I have a fresh 4.2 Maser and electronics sitting here ready for install (intake plenum already reversed and mounted), I must admit there are 2 ball bearing turbos sitting here on the toolbox as well. My plan is to get the car sorted with NA power and see if that satisfies. If not twin turbos and liquid intercoolers will be stage 2.
I have alot of experience with F-cars and I am not impressed with the reliability prior to the 430.
Maserati 4.2 power is essentially a 430 engine with a cross-plane crank and shorter intake plenum. Of course it too has timing chains (far more reliable). This is why I chose the setup. Lets also not forget the SOUND...

:thumbsup:

Awesome! When are you going to start your build. Like you, I think this car needs a proper exotic heart.

 

[James]

I looked at doing something similar with a 360 engine, but I wanted NA power. I have had turbo power and it is fun in a straight line for sure, but felt it took away from the experience for me, but each person is different. Here is a quick break down of cost as I see it. This assumes you will do all the work yourself.

7k 360 engine
1.5k custom je pistons and rings
2k rebuild items- lifters, gaskets, ect at f car prices
2k megasquirt pro3 ecu and wideband to run it.
1k tune and dyno time for stand alone
5-10k twin turbo setup -
I see 20-25k in this setup easy if you re doing most of the work. If not then probably add another 10k.


Now if I did it all over again at this point I think the v12 550 option might be a better option now that I know Fran can do it.

I think you could get away with a little cheaper, at least on the items listed

1. Paeco can make you a set of custom forged pistons for about $1k, and I can't imagine rings running you more than another $200 or so.
--------($1,500 or so)

2. Rebuild items (not sure haven't priced those so I assume that is correct)

3. Megasquirt 3 if you build it yourself w/ wideband ($1000)

4. Tune, I can see where you can spend $1000

5. $5-$10k for a turbo set. I believe you could get a very good set up for no more than $5k, and that is pushing it. If you spend the time. One Garrett BB turbos, figure if you go nuts and get two GTX2863 for good response and still 700hp capable ($1,500 x 2), I'm not sure what injectors Ferrari uses, if they are custom for their engine or not. If so, I would just have two fuel rails made, then you can use whatever injectors you want. Figure you'll need around 750cc injectors. A good intercooler will run you about $1,000, and you could put together the piping yourself with fittings for maybe a couple hundred more.
-----------$3,000 (gtx2863r x 2)
------------$800 (750cc injectors x 8)
-----------$1000 (Intercooler), Water to Air might be an idea
------------$200 (misc piping/fittings)
------------$700 (manifolds)
Which brings it to about $5,700


Of course other things you have to think of,, will the rods take the extra torque,, does the Ferrari use a MAP or MAF?