ABS worth it in the SL-C?

[Greg]

I brought it up in another thread but was looking to get more opinions.

Is a system like the Bosch M4 ABS Kit worth putting in the SL-C?
Bosch Motorsport - ABS M4 Kit

Since many of these cars will end up being worth a lot of money ($90k+ ?), is it worth the $8400 to incorporate this system in the build cost. I don't see it doing anything but helping. I know a lot of people often resort to the "practice threshold braking" and "get an instructor" arguments, but I think it could be useful in these cars that are likely gonna be used on the street and get exposed to panic stops. I was just thinking, looking at the amount of money invested in some of these cars, that it might be a good idea to incorporate it into the build. It would probably be even better to team it with the Racelogic TC. What are your thoughts? Anyone seen this system in action or seen it installed?

 

[Alex]

I don't think so - my 65 cobra doesn't have abs and is fine. I ripped out the abs on my 04 cobra (to disable t/c) and have had 0 problems.

 

[Jeff Young]

In my opinion, unless you are racing in a professional race series, no. On the street, with that much tire on the car, if you need ABS you are going to be in huge trouble already.

 

[Tom]

whether it's worth it is entirely your call. But depending on whether you have R compound tires on it, conditions when driven etc, there can be a significant difference in required brake bias to get shortest stopping distance. ABS adjusts that automatically. If no ABS, unless you are willing to test and adjust each time you take the car out in different conditions, you are leaving something on the table.

 

[Schills]

Since I have never triggered the ABS or TC on my current car (M3), including time at the track, for me the answer is. . . no, its not worth it.

 

[Eric]

Keep in mind, ABS does not decrease stopping distance, it only keeps the wheels from locking up. You can argue that in and of itself will decrease stopping distance, because if you are sliding the stopping distance increases (pump the brakes yourself!), but the car will never stop in a shorter distance with ABS than without in the same dry-pavement conditions. It is a misconception that ABS decreases stopping distance. The true purpose of ABS is for the driver to maintain control in a stopping situation through a turn.

I've never been a big fan of ABS, and I live in the snow belt. But, if I *were* to put ABS on an SL-C (or any other car, for that matter), I certainly wouldn't drop $8,400 to do so. For $100, go to the junkyard and get an entire system, then replace the wheel speed sensors with new ones. It will take some work on your part to engineer everything to work on your car, but it will save you $8K.

Eric

 

[Jack]

Nope! Not worth it. The SL-C has some pretty good sized tires and great brakes already. Pump your own pedal and save a lot of $$$$$. You would be amazed at the short stopping distances of the SL-C, ask Cam!

 

[J. Salmon]

I used to wonder the same thing, now I don't. ABS is great for the population at large. It is unnecessary for people who are really into driving at almost any level. It is quite literally for people who have no emergency plan except "push on brake pedal as hard as possible".

 

[Ron Earp]

Hell no. If it stops as well as the RCR T70, and I think it will do at least that good or better, then you've got plenty of pad area, rotor, and tire.

 

[Doc Kaler]

Well Greg......there you have it! :thumbsup:

I would have to agree with the consensus. I never got into the ABS on my Viper, track or otherwise. And, that was the only "Nanny Function" on-board. It may be useful for the masses as previously posted, most notably with a change in weather conditions (sudden dry to wet, etc)

 

[Greg]

I've never been a big fan of ABS, and I live in the snow belt. But, if I *were* to put ABS on an SL-C (or any other car, for that matter), I certainly wouldn't drop $8,400 to do so. For $100, go to the junkyard and get an entire system, then replace the wheel speed sensors with new ones. It will take some work on your part to engineer everything to work on your car, but it will save you $8K.

Eric

But that's not really a viable option. Pulling an ABS unit from another car is a problem in itself as it will not have been tuned for the SL-C. That is the problem with the retrofitted Corvette ABS setup.

I was reading, what little information I could find, about the kit and the guys over on the Porsche forums were talking about the benefit of using the system in a track application as a prevention for flat-spotting new sets of tires, etc. The consensus was the same over there.

Bosch ABS M4 kit for 997 Cup - Rennlist Discussion Forums

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=20&t=798487&mid=0&i=0&nmt=Bosch+Motorsport&mid=0

Supposedly it operates completely differently than a usual OEM ABS setup, less intrusive especially since it's tunable. The ability to toggle it on/off is nice. The system itself intrigues me but I can't find out much about it and what makes it so much better than OEM setups. It's also a pretty new setup so there don't seem to be many users yet.

Regardless of its abilities on the track, I was more interested in its usefulness in the "panic stop" application for when someone pulls out in front of you, without looking, in traffic. You're right Tom and Doc. Changing weather conditions is another concern I have. Although I would never intentionally drive an SL-C in the rain if I could avoid it, for the simple reason that I don't trust the other drivers, sometimes it happens.

The $8400 is a bit ridiculous (although it is a race setup). If it didn't cost so much, it might be nice to have, just as another measure of insurance to CYA. You guys are right, you should probably drive the car first to see how it reacts and then make a decision, but then you'd have to take the car apart and add it in later if you decided you wanted it. I was curious to see if you guys thought it was a good idea to plan it into a build or not.

Thanks

 

[Eric]

But that's not really a viable option. Pulling an ABS unit from another car is a problem in itself as it will not have been tuned for the SL-C. That is the problem with the retrofitted Corvette ABS setup.

That would be the "it will take some work on your part to engineer everything to work on your car" part of my post. I didn't mean to imply it would be a plug-and-play endeavor. You have to start with a car of similar size/weight (Solstace, maybe?), and that's just the starting point. ABS by itself really isn't that complex. But, when you throw in ESC it becomes significantly more involved.

There's an article in the August 2011 Car Craft about a guy (who happens to be an engineer) who took not only the ABS, but the entire ESC system from an '02 'vette and retrofitted his '68 Camaro with apparently good results.

Eric

 

[Seymour Snerd]

There's an article in the August 2011 Car Craft ....

I think you mean Hot Rod, not Car Craft. Also, IIRC, he didn't get the ESC part working, and the ABS was not really at full performance. But he did get it to operate.

Greg -- if you can't find a copy of that issue of Hot Rod let me know and I'll send you the article.

And just by way of expressing the opinion of the loyal opposition: Just because you can exquisitely threshold brake on a track while completely focused on that task doesn't really invalidate the need for ABS when you might be in a more "commuting" state of mind and you get blind-sided by some external event (cross traffic runs red light, child falls out of truck ahead of you, etc.). Now, maybe you are always in full possession of your best braking skills no matter what just happened,and regardless of road surface, gravel, water, dirt snow, potholes, heart attacks, etc., and you never, ever, panic stop; you just do absolutely perfect threshold braking every time and you always will. Uh-huh. OK....

But I know I'm not that perfect driver. If it were practical to do so I would put ABS in any car I intended to drive on the street.

I also find the "I don't need ABS because I never activated it when I had it" argument curiously devoid of logic. If your house has never burned down before does that mean you no longer need fire insurance?

Also, when someone says something like "I have never triggered the ABS or TC on my current car, including time at the track" that just makes me suspect you're not getting near your car's potential. Or you are such a fine driver that you can repeatedly take the car to within a fraction of of a percent of its braking or cornering limits but not trigger any intervention. I doff my hat. I knew you guys were good but I had no idea you were that good.

IAE, telling Greg (or me) he doesn't need ABS because YOU are a really good driver makes no sense at all. If Greg and I think we might need it, that means we need it.

 

[Schills]

Also, when someone says something like "I have never triggered the ABS or TC on my current car, including time at the track" that just makes me suspect you're not getting near your car's potential.

I can confirm that I am not getting near the full potential of the car. And I suspect I would never get near the full potential of an SL-C. I'm okay with that. I think that puts me in with 99.5% of the population.

 

[Greg]

That would be the "it will take some work on your part to engineer everything to work on your car" part of my post. I didn't mean to imply it would be a plug-and-play endeavor. You have to start with a car of similar size/weight (Solstace, maybe?), and that's just the starting point. ABS by itself really isn't that complex. But, when you throw in ESC it becomes significantly more involved.

There's an article in the August 2011 Car Craft about a guy (who happens to be an engineer) who took not only the ABS, but the entire ESC system from an '02 'vette and retrofitted his '68 Camaro with apparently good results.

Eric

Thanks for the offer Alan, the Corvette ABS retrofit is pretty well documented over on the GTM forum. I definitely agree with the "better safe than sorry" argument. It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Driving on the street is different from driving on the track where all the cars are going the same direction and deliberately trying not to come to a full stop. I bet if the system was a quarter of the cost some people might change their minds. The Bosch ABS is the only aftermarket tunable ABS setup I've seen (don't know if there are others), maybe in the future it'll become more affordable.

I understand what you mean Eric. Perhaps viable is the wrong word, maybe advisable is better. Adapting the ABS from the Corvette to the Camaro is feasible, from one front-engine rear-wheel-drive vehicle to another. The weights are different but the distribution is similar. Swapping the system over to a mid-engine rear-wheel-drive vehicle with a different weight distribution is a different story. Yes the wheel speed sensors will allow the ABS to stop the wheels from locking under braking but those aren't the only sensors utilized by the ABS. Braking hard while turning will be a different story. I just don't see the adaptation of another cars ABS being a good solution. To do it right you really need a tunable ABS like the one Bosch has released (but the price of it is hard to swallow). That's what I meant. I should have clarified, sorry.

 

[Ricardo Montalvo]

I think you mean Hot Rod, not Car Craft. Also, IIRC, he didn't get the ESC part working, and the ABS was not really at full performance. But he did get it to operate.

Greg -- if you can't find a copy of that issue of Hot Rod let me know and I'll send you the article.

And just by way of expressing the opinion of the loyal opposition: Just because you can exquisitely threshold brake on a track while completely focused on that task doesn't really invalidate the need for ABS when you might be in a more "commuting" state of mind and you get blind-sided by some external event (cross traffic runs red light, child falls out of truck ahead of you, etc.). Now, maybe you are always in full possession of your best braking skills no matter what just happened,and regardless of road surface, gravel, water, dirt snow, potholes, heart attacks, etc., and you never, ever, panic stop; you just do absolutely perfect threshold braking every time and you always will. Uh-huh. OK....

But I know I'm not that perfect driver. If it were practical to do so I would put ABS in any car I intended to drive on the street.

I also find the "I don't need ABS because I never activated it when I had it" argument curiously devoid of logic. If your house has never burned down before does that mean you no longer need fire insurance?

Also, when someone says something like "I have never triggered the ABS or TC on my current car, including time at the track" that just makes me suspect you're not getting near your car's potential. Or you are such a fine driver that you can repeatedly take the car to within a fraction of of a percent of its braking or cornering limits but not trigger any intervention. I doff my hat. I knew you guys were good but I had no idea you were that good.

IAE, telling Greg (or me) he doesn't need ABS because YOU are a really good driver makes no sense at all. If Greg and I think we might need it, that means we need it.

Great post. I'm all for reliable nannies if I can get them.

 

[Rich E.]

If you can afford the system go for it but in my opinion the $$$ can put to better use. Learn how to threshold brake and keep your eyes up.

.02
Rich.

 

[Eric]

I think you mean Hot Rod, not Car Craft. Also, IIRC, he didn't get the ESC part working, and the ABS was not really at full performance. But he did get it to operate.

You're right, Hot Rod, not Car Craft. Oops. That guy did get the ECS working along with the ABS, he just does not have it interfaced with the ECU (the EBCM is working by itself). And, yes, it did sound like he is still in the tuning stage (the article says the ECS is kicking in a bit early, limiting his lateral g's).

Eric

 

[Jim Glickenhaus]

We use the system in P 4/5 Competizione and it works very well especially at The Ring in wet conditions where it can be raining and dry on the same lap and you can be out on rains or slicks. It is not something for many as it requires a bit of engineering, testing and understanding but in a 24 hour race it made a lot of difference.

 

[Jack Houpe]

I for one would like it plus fly by wire so traction control could be used, you can't think as fast as a computer. When your on the tract and front brakes get hotter than the back your asking for trouble. If a driver has to use brake bias its just one more thing to distract you from driving and its been proven on all modern race cars.