Best ECU available in the US

I just got off the phone with the local Motec dealer who gave me these nice numbers. In US dollars.

m8000____________________4160
with milspec plug________5460___for a plug
m48______________________2600
custom harness___________2000 - 3000

But if you buy an m8000 and want to run an 8 coil direct ignition you need the:

expander__________________400

Latest E11 Haltech ECU complete system for which I have no specs is $1650.

I'm not looking for launch control or traction control or doing any thing with boost. I just want a very fast street engine with the drivability that EFI and an ECU offer, no distributor and no wasted spark.

I am building an 8 stack EFI (Hilborn) Windsor and want Direct Ignition, 8 coils not 4. A semi-friendly interface or GUI would be handy.

Motec seems high tech but very pricey here in the US.

Haltech seems high tech but our local dealer was impossible to reach before sale. Can't expect much help from them after the sale.

Hitman offered a great price on a complete Haltech system plus a map good enough to get me to the dyno shop.

I've heard some complaints about Electromotive's hardware and find they are lagging behind in technology.

Would any of the ECU sages in the group care to offer guidance/suggestions? Please don't be afraid to offend. I'm looking for people's impressions and experience with great or not so great ECUs and the programming of them.

Thanks in advance.

Mark, I came across EU dealer on WEB a couple of months ago, pricing about 60% of US, and it included VAT. I'll try and find and send to you.

I have no problems with seeing people make a profit, but the US Motec distributor is gouging.

Mark, there's a guy on another forum I frequent who is very knowledgeable about ECUs and he is a distributor for Haltech. He's in North Carolina and he also happens to race 5.0 Mustangs, so he could certainly help you out. Shoot me an email if you want the hook up.

Just got my catalog from Kinsler.
http://www.kinsler.com/

If your going to do any of the EFI setup yourself their catalog has a lot of good info on the complete system.

They handle all the major ECU's and know how to tune them. They quoted these prices

Motec M48 2950.00 (just ECU)

Electromotive TEC 3 2150.00 W/unterminated harness

Haltec E6K 1150.00 W/unterminated harness

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Kalun D ]

Purchased several Haltechs over the years from Engine Management Systems, Mystic Ct.
Dave Dalghren. He has always provided maps good enough to get the engine running. Used his services to set up maps on dyno for the Cleveland. About 2 or 3 hours total.
Had some problems with the Hall switch for the ignition. I purchased it a year before the ECU. Haltech made a design change in the ECU and the switch I had wouldn't work properly with the new ECU. Dave was great to work with trying to get that sorted out.
www.enginemanagementsystems.com

Oh, by the way, he sells Motec too. Prices are high. What a suprise!!

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: DaveWharran ]

Mark, those prices for Motec are crazy - I am getting pricing here in Aus at about the same numbers, but in AU$ - at about 1AU$ for US$0.56, that is some freight charge, or some rip-off !!

Looks like there is room for a "grey market" somewhere here !

Peter D.

I would like to buy a Motec system, but I think the prices are too high. Then they add costs for "options" like data logging, etc. Basic data logging is included with the electromotive and autronic units for example.

Yes, they are pricing. And you have to have inputs enabled - like O2 sensor hookup, logging, and various other bits turned on as CCX mentioned. Some work for a trial period of time and then quit making you pay up.

I think they are overpriced and overratted, just my opinion. There are other units out on the market with the same similar specs and in some cases superior software.

The Motec units are nice, but with US pricing just too damn high.

R

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Ron Earp ]

Sounds like a good opportunity for a group purchase/shipment! How many people would be interested (I'll take one if it's really half the US price)? Anyone familiar with shipping/customs of new automotive parts from Australia to the US?

Howdy all. . . .

I'm the guy from NC that Mark Worthington mentioned in this thread. I'd be happy to help any of you with anything I possibly can with regards to the Haltech products. Please understand that I am by NO means the Haltech or EFI God, but that I do have a pretty good backround on the issue, am capable of explaining a lot better than other dealers, and am close personal friends with the guys at Haltech USA. Any questions that I can't answer personally, I'll do my best to find out from somebody who can. I'm a little blessed to have Haltech USA's attention, and have a lot better luck at dealing with them than an end user will. More on that issue later.

A couple words of caution for those of you who are considering buying from Matt in Austraila or from Robert in Sweden. I think very highly of them both, not only as dealers/technical support providers, but as people as well. They're great guys, and they'll do their very best to help you out and give you a great deal. However, keep in mind that if you're in the USA, you'll have to accept the fact that tech support will be inconvenient, and returning possible faulty product will be time consuming and expensive.

Furthermore, Haltech frowns upon people in the USA buying their products from dealers outside the USA. You see, it boils down to taking care of it's dealers, not to mention the guys at Haltech USA. Haltech pays it's US employees to service customers within the boundries set forth by the company. If you buy from Matt, then try to send it to Haltech USA, they'll most likely refuse it and send it right back to you. Why? Because their jobs depend not only on being able to service the product after the sale, but to service the dealers who market the product.

Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this into a rant. Rather, I thought I'd toss in a couple cents worth about buying from an overseas dealer. If you'd like to buy from me, great. If not, that's fine too! I make a decent living at my legitimate job, and this EFI stuff is mostly just a hobby for me. If any of you are interested, please feel free to contact me. If a handfull of you are interested in doing a group purchase, I would be happy to do that as well. At any rate, I think that Haltech has a great product for a fair price, and most anyone here can be just as happy with it as they would a $5000 MoTec ECU.

Let me know if I can help!

BK

Oh, and I almost forgot. . . .

Let me throw in a plug for the Autronics ECUs as well. Though I don't have a source for them at the moment, I feel they are a pretty good alternative to the Haltech ECUs, though they are a bit more difficult to obtain service for (compared to Haltech, anyway.) The Autronics system offers an auto-tune option (nice touch, but not foolproof or necessary) and built in traction control (on it's up-scale processor.) I'd stay away from the Electromotive stuff if I were you. . . though I can make a good deal for you on that stuff as well!!! I'm just not interested in it for my own personal use, and wouldn't push it on anyone who I thought might catch me in a dark alley. . . ha ha

The Haltech E6K will run a multi-stack EFI quite nicely, though I'm not clear on why you are so insistant on the direct ignition (waste spark) setup. This is very do-able, but it requires a crank trigger and pickup, and is a bit more envolved when it comes to setup and tuning. Ford Duraspark and TFI distributors do quite nicely, and will work nicely on most people's cars. Again, I don't know what your ultimate intentions are for your car/engine, so don't feel like I'm questioning your logic. I just feel like it's a lot of extra work, with relatively little practical advantage over the distributor ignition setup in most cases.

The last time I checked, the E11 is still not available, and Haltech still won't say when it will hit the streets. The main things that the E11 will do that the E6K won't is sequential fuel/direct spark on a V8 engine. With the E6K, you can do either semi-sequential with distributor ignition (my favorite) OR batch (bank to bank) with waste spark ignition. Six of one, half dozen of another. It's mostly about bling, though YMMV.

Folks that thought about using the factory Ford electronics should FORGET about it. Really, programmable EFI is really the only way to go if you want to get the most out of your car. Once you have this on your car and get it sorted out, you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner! It's good stuff. . . .

More thoughts as I come up with them.

BK

Uh, I lied. . .

Behold, the Haltech E11 is finally here!
www.haltech.com

BK

any comments/thoughts about the SDS systems? http://www.sdsefi.com/index.html

I know they are not as fancy as the others being only a "two channel" unit,,,,, but the price is right and it seems, well,,,,"simple".

I'm using the Haltech E6K for direct fired ignition. 4 magnets embedded in the flywheel and Haltech's Hall switch that provides both sync and trigger signals from the same switch. I use 2 Motec dual coil assemblies.

Advantages:
-Ignition timing is dead nuts on whatever you program it to...at any rpm.

-You can program any advance curve you desire based on rpm and engine load (throttle opening in my case)

-Once you set the trigger angle (tells ECU how far the trigger magnet is from TDC) you never need to put a timing light on the engine. Timing degrees are set and read out on the laptop.

-No mechanical items to wear or effect timing over time.

-No distributor cap against the firewall of a GT40

-Capabilities are already in the E6K, whether you use them or not.

Disadvantages:
-The E6K would only do wasted spark on a V8 due to output limitations. I understand the new ECU overcomes this limitation.

-If you use wasted spark, you need 4 coils which adds cost.

-magnets, Hall switch, machining for magnets all cost money.

-VERY little clearance between the face of the flywheel and engine block to fit magnets in. It can be done though! I set the engine up using a steel flywheel and dynoed it with that flywheel. The magnets were embedded in custom stainless bolts. Ignition worked flawlessly. I plan to go to an aluminum flywheel though not due to any ignition problems.

-Distrubitor must be cut down and a cover made because it remains to drive the oil pump unless doing a dry sump. Not much left of mine though!

-Harder to get working if you experience any problems in programming or hardware.

I couldn't be more happy with the way the Haltech worked once it was discovered I had an older Hall switch and a newer ECU. A newer style switch was like night and day.

As always, it boils down to what YOU want. Nothing wrong with a distributor and single coil. Millions of them out there that work every day with no problems. If you like higher tech which is one reason to go to EFI, the programability and stability of direct fired ignition can't be beat.

As far as reliability, I'm still running a Haltech F3 that I bought in the early 90's on my EFI turbocharged VW. It doesn't do ignition but has worked flawlessly for the injection since purchased.

BK

""The Haltech E6K will run a multi-stack EFI quite nicely, though I'm not clear on why you are so insistant on the direct ignition (waste spark) setup"".

most GT40's don't have room for the larger diameter hi volt distributors. I also like the cleaner look of less plug wires. It also seems better to switch plug firing on the primary(ECU) level rather than with the secondary cap and rotor. I like the E11 cuz it will do 1 coil per cylinder, no wasted spark.

""This is very do-able, but it requires a crank trigger and pickup, and is a bit more envolved when it comes to setup and tuning.""

so don't you need a crank trigger anyway with sequential injection, which we will have with 8 barrel EFI induction?

educate me on these points, it's sort of a gray area to me.

group (or semi-sequential) injector firing is just like waste spark? the injector and the coil to each cylinder fires twice per the 4 strokes (intake, comp, power, exhaust)?

so you only need 4 coil and 4 injector outputs for a V8 since your firing twice per 4 strokes, since one cylinder is always on TDC of exhaust when another is on TDC of compression?

sequential injector firing and "direct fire coil on plug" are the same? the injector and coil of each cylinder fires only once per the 4 strokes, injector at start of intake and coil at TDC of compression? So you need 8 separate coils and a crank sensor and cam sensor?

"" The main things that the E11 will do that the E6K won't is sequential fuel/direct spark on a V8 engine. With the E6K, you can do either semi-sequential with distributor ignition (my favorite) OR batch (bank to bank) with waste spark ignition. ""

I thought the E6K would do full sequential on the injectors (V8)? (with crank and cam sensors)

""It's mostly about bling, though YMMV.""

???

""Folks that thought about using the factory Ford electronics should FORGET about it.""

agree, unless your running everything stock, which is tough with the plenum.

sounds like the E11 is what I'm looking for, looks like it has more map points also. How much is it going to cost?

Guys, If I had it to do over again I would simply buy the Edelbrock Pro-Flo Injection unit. This package comes with everything you need to install it. You get the ECU,control module,distributor, manifold, fuel pump and much more.
I have this system on my Cobra and I can tell you it's the best. It's infinately adjustable. You can even buy an optional laptop program for it if you prefer that rather than the module control.
For $2400 it's the best thing out there for the money. It's been on my Cobra for 13yrs and it has performed flawlessly. Here is the link. http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/index.html

8 barrel injection might be a better wow factor but it won't perform any better than the Edelbrock unit
The electronics is just as good. It just doesn't have all the bells and whistles in it like a Motec. I called Motec and was quoted $1200 to get the code to unlock one Lambda feature and another $400 for the second. All the other features on the Motec are also locked and they too require you to pay for the code before they are usable.
I admitt to being stupid and not reading what I was getting when I got the Motec. But it does work well thanks to the base program being close enough that I was able to get the engine to perform well without using the Lambdas. I will have it dynoed soon. Then I should be able to get it as good as it can be.

Hersh

I agree with Hershal.. atleast with as little knowledge I have regarding the subject. What I do know from experience is that the Edelbrock tech support has been very helpful in answering any and all of my questions, and have always been easy to reach. My thoughts are that even if one upgrades to the stack weber injectors look afterwords they can maintain all the Edelbock EFI and ECU and still be ahead of the game cost wise..

Well I might as well chime in here as I sell 351W and 302 stack manifolds, SDS and Electromotive systems. I have sold 12 Electromotive systems (5 TEC II and 7 TEC 3) and have been completely satisfied with their performance. One customer has a 347 that put out 456HP and 436lb/ft of torque with a TEC II and my 302 manifold. I just tuned a customers 408 in a Cobra and has the TEC II that pounded out 450RWHP and 480lb/ft of torque. We spent 3 hours total on the dyno including breaking in the engine to get it tuned. I also sell the SDS EM4D system that controls only the fuel delivery. It uses your existing ignition system and will make the same HP and be as drivable as any other system on a naturally aspirated engine. The computer controlled ignition really only becomes very important on forced induction motors as the manifold absolute pressure can vary substantially at the same RPM. Crank triggered systems are more accurate on accelleration to decelleration than distributor systems due to the inherent slop in timing chains and cam gears. The common factor that I have found over the last 18 months is when you go to a tuner, he will recommend the system he is the most familiar with because he KNOWS he can make it work. It doesn't mean the other systems won't work. I supply a close base map and tuning instructions with every system I sell and am backed up by SDS and Electromotive tech support as well. You can go to www.verycoolparts.com and see the manifolds and engine management systems as well as the CAV/GTD specific parts that I sell. Here is the dyno sheet on the 408 with the TEC II.



[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: Wayne Presley ]

Hey Wayne.. those numbers do look pretty impressive.
Dan

The best ECU...



my right foot and a set of Weber IDAs!