Howard has been working really hard to get his car started. Just about ready but there is one strange problem - when the ignition key is turned on everything seems to check out electricly, however when twisted to the starting mode the starter engages nicely and turns the engine - unfortunately when he releases the key the starter just keeps on turning over the engine. The solenoid is new, the routing of the various wires has been triple checked, the starter has been removed and checked for function and the ignition switch has been checked-we can't see anything wrong. Has anyone had an alignment problem that might allow the starter gear to jam to tightly to the fly wheel and not allow the starter to disengage as long as there power available. If we disconnect the battery the starter stops and returns to normal. Any thoughts?
Mounting of starter on GTD adaptor for Renault
- Thread starter 40bud
- Start date
G
Guest
Guest
Have to confess of not hearing of this problem before. If it returns to normal once you cut power the hard way, then to me it does sound like a wiring fault and nothing to do with the starter motor itself. One test I once did was to remove the starter motor and check it out on the bench with a separate battery and jump leads. Hold the thing down as it kicks! If ok there, then what if you replaced the starter with say a light (appropriate to voltages etc) and see the wiring is doing the right things that way. Only ideas but sometimes when I write for the club mag and proof read my own work, mistakes still slip through. Perhaps get a fourth guy to check who has had nothing to do with this so far? Is it a tilton starter or regular ford item? I have GTD wiring loom diagram somewhere in the garage attic and if you used regular GTD wiring loom then one could guess that wiring colours should be the same? Ok maybe not but worth a try?
Malcolm
Malcolm
Sounds like you may be energizing the coil of a relay somehow inadvertently. Malcolm's idea of replacing the starter motor with a light bulb is a good one. Once you've connected it up and turned the starter key and released it the light should go out but I would guess the light stays on. Check the line between the output of position 3 of the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. Is it a direct line or are you going through a relay. Isolate this circuit and try again.
If you have a relay supplying the solenoid, there is one wiring error that I can think of that may cause this symptom.
Check that there are no connections of any sort between the negative pin of the relay-switch (thats the pin that goes to the starter's solenoid) and the positive pin of the relay-coil (thats the pin that goes to the starter position of the ignition switch).
If there were such a conection, then you would be supplying a constant 12V to the relay-coil once you activated it.
In theory, this connection could be a low resistance item, such as a light globe... so another way of looking at this same wiring error is to ensure that you don't have ANY electrical item connected between the starter end of the ignition switch, and the positive end of the starter solenoid.
These conections are unlikely, but they would cause this problem.
Also, as an alternative to disconnecting the battery, try pulling the plug on any of the relay pins.
[ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: Chris L ]
Check that there are no connections of any sort between the negative pin of the relay-switch (thats the pin that goes to the starter's solenoid) and the positive pin of the relay-coil (thats the pin that goes to the starter position of the ignition switch).
If there were such a conection, then you would be supplying a constant 12V to the relay-coil once you activated it.
In theory, this connection could be a low resistance item, such as a light globe... so another way of looking at this same wiring error is to ensure that you don't have ANY electrical item connected between the starter end of the ignition switch, and the positive end of the starter solenoid.
These conections are unlikely, but they would cause this problem.
Also, as an alternative to disconnecting the battery, try pulling the plug on any of the relay pins.
[ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: Chris L ]
One slight possibility is a problem i had with a winch on my jeep, it used ford starter relays too trigger it, anyway under load it would not stop winding in, many scary moments, one day i am pulling a stump and some smoke starts to escape from one of the wires AND the winch wont stop. It was a mistake I made when i put the truck back together i only had 1 12 guage wire to ground the chasis to the batteries, thats the one that smoked. Put on a new 4 guage wire and it was perfect. Might be worth checking the grounds and make sure they are free of paint, and there.
If its a standard Ford starter, and even its its not, there will be a large relay driving the actual starter - mine is mounted on top of the starter itself. This relay takes maybe 10 amps, so you may have another lower current relay driving the main relay, this might be the problem item. A small residual current through this second relay will hold it on and keep the starter turning. If you have one of these I would bypass this secondary relay, at least temporarily, and connect the main relay straight to the starter switch.
If this cures it change the relay or check your wiring again, as someone earlier in the thread said, you might have some current route to the relay you'd don't recognise at present.
Another possibility is a sticking main relay. It takes lots of current to pull a solenoid/relay 'home' but only a relatively small amount to hold it in position. If the spring is shot or its dirty it can stick on. Might be worth stripping it and cleaning it - if you can do that.
David
If this cures it change the relay or check your wiring again, as someone earlier in the thread said, you might have some current route to the relay you'd don't recognise at present.
Another possibility is a sticking main relay. It takes lots of current to pull a solenoid/relay 'home' but only a relatively small amount to hold it in position. If the spring is shot or its dirty it can stick on. Might be worth stripping it and cleaning it - if you can do that.
David
Howard Jones
Supporter
The following is based on... all new parts and the engine has never been started in the car before now. 302SBF, R21 turbo gearbox, GTD adapter plate, GTD supplied flywheel and starter.
When I,
(1)apply only the one +12V lead from the battery to the large lug on the solenoid that is NOT going to the starter motor via the short braid going through the motor case and,
(2) jumper +12V to the small spade connector on the soleniod just long enought to start the starter motor turning. This is the one that would be attached to the momentary start posistion on the key switch.
(3) with NO other connections to anything. This more or less eliminates a wireing problem
(4) The starter will continue to turn over the engine until the battery connection is removed from (1).
I think that the starter gear is jamming into the flywheel ring gear and the small return spring in the solenoid can't pull it out eventhought there is no longer 12v applied to the solenoid coil. This would keep the solenoid main power contacts closed and continue the 12V battery power being applied to the starter motor.
This starter is the type that has a finger going up throught it's case and it is used by the solenoid to pull the starter gear into the flywheel. Since the main solenoid power contacts are linked to the finger and the finger is coupled to the starter shaft if the shaft can't retract from the flywheel the main solennoid contacts can't open thus the starter will not stop turning.
I think it is possible that the gear on the starter is not the correct one that matches the flywheel gear.
Do any of you GTD guys know which flywheel and starter is supplied by GTD. I thought it was a Mercury Capri setup but a 1985 V6 capri starter, new from parts store, will not fit up to the gearbox to engine adapter plate.
The starter I have fits just right except that the teeth on the NEW flywheel allready are showing a increaseing gap between them.
I think that the gear on the starter is the wrong one, too large in diameter and too many, and too fat, teeth. If I knew which parts were correct I could get a another starter and try my theory.
You Guys helped me fix my stuck gearbox a few weeks ago, How about one more helping hand?
I forgot to say that this starter is from Germany. The gear on it is 1 1/8" in diameter and has 9 teeth on it.
[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Howard Jones ]
When I,
(1)apply only the one +12V lead from the battery to the large lug on the solenoid that is NOT going to the starter motor via the short braid going through the motor case and,
(2) jumper +12V to the small spade connector on the soleniod just long enought to start the starter motor turning. This is the one that would be attached to the momentary start posistion on the key switch.
(3) with NO other connections to anything. This more or less eliminates a wireing problem
(4) The starter will continue to turn over the engine until the battery connection is removed from (1).
I think that the starter gear is jamming into the flywheel ring gear and the small return spring in the solenoid can't pull it out eventhought there is no longer 12v applied to the solenoid coil. This would keep the solenoid main power contacts closed and continue the 12V battery power being applied to the starter motor.
This starter is the type that has a finger going up throught it's case and it is used by the solenoid to pull the starter gear into the flywheel. Since the main solenoid power contacts are linked to the finger and the finger is coupled to the starter shaft if the shaft can't retract from the flywheel the main solennoid contacts can't open thus the starter will not stop turning.
I think it is possible that the gear on the starter is not the correct one that matches the flywheel gear.
Do any of you GTD guys know which flywheel and starter is supplied by GTD. I thought it was a Mercury Capri setup but a 1985 V6 capri starter, new from parts store, will not fit up to the gearbox to engine adapter plate.
The starter I have fits just right except that the teeth on the NEW flywheel allready are showing a increaseing gap between them.
I think that the gear on the starter is the wrong one, too large in diameter and too many, and too fat, teeth. If I knew which parts were correct I could get a another starter and try my theory.
You Guys helped me fix my stuck gearbox a few weeks ago, How about one more helping hand?
I forgot to say that this starter is from Germany. The gear on it is 1 1/8" in diameter and has 9 teeth on it.
[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Howard Jones ]
G
Guest
Guest
Other thoughts Howard, would be that once the engine starts the increased speed of the flywheel should flick the starter cog back into the starter. If you have yet to start the engine this can't happen.
It sounds to me as to me that you don't have a Tilton starter. These are geared starter motors. The GTD supplied items were found lacking in turning power if you had anything remotely exciting in CR or had hot starting problems.
The earthing of the engine was also often found to be a source of problems. Either guys hadn't ground off the powder coating from the chassis enough or the earth cable was a cheapie and so not up to the job. Big power batteries are also better. Often an extra earth lead was put direct from the starter to the chassis where the cross brace members bolt on. Grinding off the powder coating as needed again. On earth leads, quality welding cable is a good source of wire. Use high ampage cable.
As I would not beleive many US guys will be putting in stock 302s I would suggest that the GTD supplied starter will be insufficient later on. If you get a geared starter you may well need an ali block spacer plate that GTD used to supply. I have no idea what the drawing is like so there is an opportunity for someone out there to supply these blocks.
The other thing people used to do here was to wrap insulation around the solenoid as that when hot was part of the standard starter motor problems.
Not a lot of this helps you with your current problem but hopefully food for thought all the same.
Malcolm
It sounds to me as to me that you don't have a Tilton starter. These are geared starter motors. The GTD supplied items were found lacking in turning power if you had anything remotely exciting in CR or had hot starting problems.
The earthing of the engine was also often found to be a source of problems. Either guys hadn't ground off the powder coating from the chassis enough or the earth cable was a cheapie and so not up to the job. Big power batteries are also better. Often an extra earth lead was put direct from the starter to the chassis where the cross brace members bolt on. Grinding off the powder coating as needed again. On earth leads, quality welding cable is a good source of wire. Use high ampage cable.
As I would not beleive many US guys will be putting in stock 302s I would suggest that the GTD supplied starter will be insufficient later on. If you get a geared starter you may well need an ali block spacer plate that GTD used to supply. I have no idea what the drawing is like so there is an opportunity for someone out there to supply these blocks.
The other thing people used to do here was to wrap insulation around the solenoid as that when hot was part of the standard starter motor problems.
Not a lot of this helps you with your current problem but hopefully food for thought all the same.
Malcolm
Howard, we use a Tilton starter motor part number 54-10007, and remove the aluminium nose piece and replace this with a special aluminium adaptor to mount directly to the GTD adaptor plate. Tilton also call this starter "Paragon, std plate mount 10/12 pitch pinion IQ 189. Frank
----------------------------
Spares Secretary to the GTD40s Car Club
[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: F CATT ]
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Spares Secretary to the GTD40s Car Club
[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: F CATT ]
Just a question thats bothering me.
If the starter gear is jamming against the ring gear, then why does it UNjam when the starter stops rotating? I would have expected it to be MORE jammed, because you have now introduced static friction???
[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Chris L ]
If the starter gear is jamming against the ring gear, then why does it UNjam when the starter stops rotating? I would have expected it to be MORE jammed, because you have now introduced static friction???
[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Chris L ]
Hi Howard
There should be a spacer plate (3/16") between the adapter plate and the starter, in most cases this was welded to the adapter plate to stop the starter seating too deeply into the bellhousing and not letting the solenoid fully engage, thus maintaining power to the starter. There are adapter plates out there without the starter spacers.
Regards
Chris
There should be a spacer plate (3/16") between the adapter plate and the starter, in most cases this was welded to the adapter plate to stop the starter seating too deeply into the bellhousing and not letting the solenoid fully engage, thus maintaining power to the starter. There are adapter plates out there without the starter spacers.
Regards
Chris
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Hi all,
Below is the spacer plate between adapter and starter (in this instance a Tilton geared example).
Hope it helps..
regards
Below is the spacer plate between adapter and starter (in this instance a Tilton geared example).
Hope it helps..
regards
Howard Jones
Supporter
Paul..The 3/8"spacer is welded in place as you have shown above.
I think that the starter drive gear is binding. I took off the lower bell housung cover so I could see whats going on and the gear from the starter was still stuck into the flywheel gear until I lightly tapped on it. The flywheel gear is starting to show some minor misalinement wear on it.
I did some mesurements and I don't think that the starter gear is the correct one for this flywheel. It apears to be too big. I have another starter from a Ford Capri V6 that seams to have the correct gear but it will not fit the adapter plate mounting holes and the shroud around the bendix drive will not fit into the hole either.
If I knew which flywheel is "standard" on a GTD I would be able to get this sorted out I believe.
The flywheel has JF3 on it and it is a Ford part, I think from a V6.
The starter has the following on it.
Numbers on the motor body
746 4
Germany
0 001311047
-> 12V
73 GB 11000AA
Numbers on the cast gear drive lower part
2 005823
117
Could have someone forgot to change the lower part that has the drive gear in it before it left GTD? This would account for a correct mounting fit but a wrong drive gear.
Thanks, Howard Jones
I think that the starter drive gear is binding. I took off the lower bell housung cover so I could see whats going on and the gear from the starter was still stuck into the flywheel gear until I lightly tapped on it. The flywheel gear is starting to show some minor misalinement wear on it.
I did some mesurements and I don't think that the starter gear is the correct one for this flywheel. It apears to be too big. I have another starter from a Ford Capri V6 that seams to have the correct gear but it will not fit the adapter plate mounting holes and the shroud around the bendix drive will not fit into the hole either.
If I knew which flywheel is "standard" on a GTD I would be able to get this sorted out I believe.
The flywheel has JF3 on it and it is a Ford part, I think from a V6.
The starter has the following on it.
Numbers on the motor body
746 4
Germany
0 001311047
-> 12V
73 GB 11000AA
Numbers on the cast gear drive lower part
2 005823
117
Could have someone forgot to change the lower part that has the drive gear in it before it left GTD? This would account for a correct mounting fit but a wrong drive gear.
Thanks, Howard Jones
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Hi Howard,
The std flywheel I believe came from the Ford V6 'Essex' engines. This differs from the V6 Cologne engine and the flywheels are not the same.
As many people use Steel flywheels to their own specification, they often only require the 'Essex Ring gear' which I believe is the crucial part - It must be fitted the right way round though as the teeth have a slight bevel to lead the pinion teeth onto the ring.
Not sure whether this helps but it sounds like you're on the right track anyway with the pinion alignment issue.
regards
[ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Thompson ]
The std flywheel I believe came from the Ford V6 'Essex' engines. This differs from the V6 Cologne engine and the flywheels are not the same.
As many people use Steel flywheels to their own specification, they often only require the 'Essex Ring gear' which I believe is the crucial part - It must be fitted the right way round though as the teeth have a slight bevel to lead the pinion teeth onto the ring.
Not sure whether this helps but it sounds like you're on the right track anyway with the pinion alignment issue.
regards
[ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Thompson ]
Hi all, Howard and Bud I have e mailed you directly with the answers to the starter problems. As others have said the starter and the ring gear should both be the Essex V6 3.0 litre. Not the Cologne 2.8 .. The V6 Essex was fitted to Capri's Both English and USA versions and Granada's early series one. It was also fitted to some V6 Transit vans, and to a great deal of English Ambulances! This engine also found its wasy into Some other USA fords and believe iot or not De Tomaso Pantera's were fitted with them in the Fuel Crisis of the Seventies. Though I doubt many stayed in there!
There are a few things to look for: YOu must as Malcolm Suggests, Earth the area thoroughly. Early GTD suffered from this. The starter was never man enough to spin a decent tuned 302 anyhow. It will work for a while, though in the UK the rain takes its toll as the solenoid is mounted the wrong way, this allows water into the bendix area and it finds its way into the contact area and rots the terminals inside. it can be combated by regular greasing but the answer is really a tilton or similar. Presuming GTD did supply the right parts! The ring gear should be a Essex v6. Same as the Starter, if I saw them i could confirm. The early cars all wore this arrangement. However if GTD have supplied the wrong starter or a cheap rebuild unit, this may be the whole problem. no matter how you wire it, it may be a faulty unit. Check the Alignment, bendix travel dry, that the bendix is lubricated (copperslip or similar) that it doesnt wobble too much on the throw shaft. That the nose cone doesnt foul the adaptor plate and the flywheel itself. Next would be to be brave and measure the throw out contact of the gear against the ring gear teeth. there should be an amount of free play (feeler gauge between the meshing gears)If there is not, it could be why its jamming. You can fix it by elongating the lower starter hole slightly until it has the correct adjustment to free play. This was a normal practice in the factory back in the late eighties until the Tilton was used.
If you still stuck Mail me again. Best of luck
Mark Sibley
There are a few things to look for: YOu must as Malcolm Suggests, Earth the area thoroughly. Early GTD suffered from this. The starter was never man enough to spin a decent tuned 302 anyhow. It will work for a while, though in the UK the rain takes its toll as the solenoid is mounted the wrong way, this allows water into the bendix area and it finds its way into the contact area and rots the terminals inside. it can be combated by regular greasing but the answer is really a tilton or similar. Presuming GTD did supply the right parts! The ring gear should be a Essex v6. Same as the Starter, if I saw them i could confirm. The early cars all wore this arrangement. However if GTD have supplied the wrong starter or a cheap rebuild unit, this may be the whole problem. no matter how you wire it, it may be a faulty unit. Check the Alignment, bendix travel dry, that the bendix is lubricated (copperslip or similar) that it doesnt wobble too much on the throw shaft. That the nose cone doesnt foul the adaptor plate and the flywheel itself. Next would be to be brave and measure the throw out contact of the gear against the ring gear teeth. there should be an amount of free play (feeler gauge between the meshing gears)If there is not, it could be why its jamming. You can fix it by elongating the lower starter hole slightly until it has the correct adjustment to free play. This was a normal practice in the factory back in the late eighties until the Tilton was used.
If you still stuck Mail me again. Best of luck
Mark Sibley
Hi again all, The tilton starters are the best solution, many people use them now. You can obtain the motor in the states easily. I have the special ally blocks that mount them to the GTD adaptor plates if anyone needs them. It is a straight forward modification with a best solution scenario.
I dont believe for a second you may have one, but some early GTD adaptor plates were not CNC machined. These had a slight hole alignment problem. The starter motor area was one of the problems. Though how a plate from 1988 would end up on your car remains a mystery. How many holes does your flywheel have in the Centre? and is the flywheel cast steel or billet machined? Are there two lots of clutch mounting holes on the surface? Has it been remachined? It would confirm a few details for me.
Best Regards
Mark Sibley
I dont believe for a second you may have one, but some early GTD adaptor plates were not CNC machined. These had a slight hole alignment problem. The starter motor area was one of the problems. Though how a plate from 1988 would end up on your car remains a mystery. How many holes does your flywheel have in the Centre? and is the flywheel cast steel or billet machined? Are there two lots of clutch mounting holes on the surface? Has it been remachined? It would confirm a few details for me.
Best Regards
Mark Sibley
Howard Jones
Supporter
Thanks ALL!!
I tried to slightly open up the lower mounting hole and had a good look at the gear to gear clearance. I did this with the solenoid out so I could move the starter gear in and out. It was necessary to rotate the engine counter-clockwise with a big whench on the damper bolt to get the starter gear to slide into battery. Now I have always believed that SBF's rotate clockwise as viewed standing in front of the engine and looking at the waterpump. Maybe I've been out in the garage too long but this leads me to believe that the ring gear on the flywheel is around backwards or the gear on the starter is not correct. I will look at Buds car to confirm all this and if I take the gearbox off I'll post pictures of the flywheel etc. for your viewing pleasure. That should give us all the data we need to solve the "Which is it" questions.
Give me a few days.
Thanks again!!
Oh and I took all your advice about proper grounding and sanded off all the coating on the frame near the starter, drilled and threaded a hole in the middle of the clean area for a 3/8 24 bolt and bolted the ground cable to the frame. The other end of the ground cable is attached to the upper starter mounting bolt. The battery end of the ground circuit is attached to one of the front anti-sway bar mounts. This is a threaded hole into the frame also. These measures along with the starter mounting hole relief did not clear problem. Also welding cable is used throughout. Lugs have been crimped on with a proper power crimping tool.
[ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: Howard Jones ]
[ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: Howard Jones ]
I tried to slightly open up the lower mounting hole and had a good look at the gear to gear clearance. I did this with the solenoid out so I could move the starter gear in and out. It was necessary to rotate the engine counter-clockwise with a big whench on the damper bolt to get the starter gear to slide into battery. Now I have always believed that SBF's rotate clockwise as viewed standing in front of the engine and looking at the waterpump. Maybe I've been out in the garage too long but this leads me to believe that the ring gear on the flywheel is around backwards or the gear on the starter is not correct. I will look at Buds car to confirm all this and if I take the gearbox off I'll post pictures of the flywheel etc. for your viewing pleasure. That should give us all the data we need to solve the "Which is it" questions.
Give me a few days.
Thanks again!!
Oh and I took all your advice about proper grounding and sanded off all the coating on the frame near the starter, drilled and threaded a hole in the middle of the clean area for a 3/8 24 bolt and bolted the ground cable to the frame. The other end of the ground cable is attached to the upper starter mounting bolt. The battery end of the ground circuit is attached to one of the front anti-sway bar mounts. This is a threaded hole into the frame also. These measures along with the starter mounting hole relief did not clear problem. Also welding cable is used throughout. Lugs have been crimped on with a proper power crimping tool.
[ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: Howard Jones ]
[ January 26, 2003: Message edited by: Howard Jones ]
Howard Jones
Supporter
OK Got it, The Damn brand new starter is bad! It appears that the bendix gear just will not retract.
Swapped Buds starter, Thanks BUD!! He took his out and drove over to my house, into my car and it works just find. Both of the starters are the same model. Every number on them matches and all the measurements are the same. something must be adrift inside mine. Anyway now I can put the car back together when I find another starter and get on with it. Thank all of you for your help and kind words.
When start it up I will post the news.
I should add that both Mark Sibley and Paul Thompson have both gone to great lenghts trying to help me. I can and will vouch for them both. GOOD PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM!!!!
[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Howard Jones ]
Swapped Buds starter, Thanks BUD!! He took his out and drove over to my house, into my car and it works just find. Both of the starters are the same model. Every number on them matches and all the measurements are the same. something must be adrift inside mine. Anyway now I can put the car back together when I find another starter and get on with it. Thank all of you for your help and kind words.
When start it up I will post the news.
I should add that both Mark Sibley and Paul Thompson have both gone to great lenghts trying to help me. I can and will vouch for them both. GOOD PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM!!!!
[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Howard Jones ]
Ross Nicol
GT40s Supporter
Howard
There's a spring in the solenoid (on the side of the starter motor)which retracts the pinion gear on these reduction starter motors.It's probably missing in yours.This also explains the continuing cranking as the solenoid contains the starter motor solenoid contacts.I know this because I've dismantled the solenoid off mine and fitted a rubber band to hold the pinion gear forward so I could mesh the starter and drill holes for perfect alignment on ZF bellhousing.Not only that but I've done it on 2 cars now.
regards Ross
There's a spring in the solenoid (on the side of the starter motor)which retracts the pinion gear on these reduction starter motors.It's probably missing in yours.This also explains the continuing cranking as the solenoid contains the starter motor solenoid contacts.I know this because I've dismantled the solenoid off mine and fitted a rubber band to hold the pinion gear forward so I could mesh the starter and drill holes for perfect alignment on ZF bellhousing.Not only that but I've done it on 2 cars now.
regards Ross
Howard Jones
Supporter
Heres how I fixed It. I added another solenoid in series with the solenoid mounted on the starter. This prevents battery voltage being present anywhere on the starter when the new,remote soleniod is not energized. The starter mounted sol. get its coil key to start voltage from the main battery out terminal on the remote sol. I know this should'nt be necessary but it all works fine. I reviewed some old Electronic Engineering text books and I think this partiular rebuilt starter in wound in such a way that when current is flowing it builds up a magnetic field strong enought to hold in the solenoid armature. This may be because this starter motor is not ment to crank over a V8. It is a V6 starter. The extra loan would require more current draw and thus the greater magnetic field. When the current is stopped via the remote solenoid it allows the starter mounted solenoid to use its spring to return to the out of gear mode. This could be all hot air but I really can't think of anything else. Anyway it works now and I will atempt a engine start this weekend. Hows that for wierd!!!
