Holley Carb set up?

I'm having problems setting my Holley carb.
The main problems are the engine revs are slow to pick up when accelerating & the engine runs uneven at idle.
I have checked the MSD ignition & timing along with the MSD Pro Billet distributor for operation & all seem fine. Which has led me to believe that fuel induction is the problem. The carb is a 600cfm Vac Sec. Any help greatly appreciated.
 
I am by no means an expert /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I would look at the idle adjustment screws. You can also change jets, accel pump cam, and booster valve. There are several books on Holley adjusting such as these listed at Amazon :
Amazon Search Results
 
Paul
I am popping by Real Steel tomorrow on my way home from Heathrow. If you want me to pick up a Holley book for you, Send me a message tonight on here or on my mail and I will pick it and drop it over either tomorrow or Sat.

Brett
 
I also am no expert. I have the same carb on my engine. We had to use a weaker spring on the vacuum secondary control, add a changable jet plate for the secondaries and play with the cam for the accelerator pump. The engine cam you are running will vary the changes. Good luck. Stick with it and you will be pleased with the result. Once set up mine has run for years and thousands of miles with no problems.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Take the fuel bowls and metering blocks off and make sure there is no debris in the small holes in the metering blocks. The small ones near the center bottom are for idle feed. Also make sure you don't have anything stuck in the float neddle/jet. When I first started driving my car I had all these problems. It turned out that the assembly lube that was used to put together the stainless an lines got hard with age and came loose fouling the carb. I think the GTD guys used a little to much lube also. The lines after the filters were the problem. If you have a NEW holley then you will be able to reuse the gasket/seals, blue ones only, when you take it apart. If its older or does not have the nonstick blue gaskets then be sure to replace them with the blue ones when you put it back together. Good luck. Also get a book on Holleys. There are a lot of good ones out there.
 
Cheers guys,
Just got the book now to put it into practice!!
Although, I'm still unconvinced I have have the correct carb. I'll let you know how I get on.
Brett, I need to contact you. Are you at home or on your 'travels' ?
 
Paul,
Just flying back in a couple of hours, I'll give you a ring over the weekend /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif They're actually going to let me stay at home for a few weeks so I can remember why I pay this thing called a mortgage... not hotel bills /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Brett
 

Malcolm

Supporter
Hi Paul

Whilst I think a too small carb will at least allow the engine to run you will suffer at higher RPM. I did when the club went to Nurburgring in 1994. Changed carb and now things are better.

A general rule of thumb that came out of the Poole GTD factory was that for vacuum secondary chokes use a 750 cfm holley and for double pumpers use a 650 cfm carb. The latter is what I have. I also have an MSD ignition system now and the combination of those items went smoothly.

To set my idle screws, I always have screwed them in till they just pinch tight, then unscrew 1.5 turns. Float bowl levels can also cause problems too so need to ensure that they are neither too high nor too low.

With rpm pickup, remember you can't just floor a holley carb. I read somewhere that if you feel a wallop in the back upon accelerating instead of a steady push of power, the carb is not set up right. You have to feed in the throttle otherwise you send in too much fuel and that causes a temporary flood which slows response. (Holley is afterall Latin for bucket!) Its a feel thing that Holley guys get with a small amount of practice. Remember, sitting stationary blipping the throttle is different than when the car is under load conditions.

If you are really stuck, you can come down and borrow my carb straight off my car and fit it to yours to see if the cars runs ok then. Its only 4 nuts and a couple of pipes!

Hope you get it sorted soon.

Malcolm
 
Cheers Malcolm,
I have stripped the carb & found that the secondary Diaphgram is split. I'm hoping that renewing this will cure the problem.
Following on from this, is it worthwhile modifying the floats to centre hung type or fitting a 50cc accelerator pump? I understand the latter requires raising the carb by 1" to clear the pump unit?
All said, would I be better off fitting a Street Avenger or going the 750cfm route?
So many questions!!!
Thanks for the suggestion to lend me your carb Malc, this is the 2nd offer I have had. Mac Kerr kindly offered the same.
Thanks to all.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Is that engine a 302? If so then don't go for a 750, it is too large despite backyard wisdom. Remember, the NASCAR folks make over 500 hp through a restrictor plate engines. While I'm not a NASCAR fan, I do know that Bill Elliot turned a 203 mph lap at Talledega with a 390 CFM (the limit) carb. He didn't do it with 300hp either, so you'll have plenty of air.

R
 

Malcolm

Supporter
Hi Paul

Glad to see you have spotted a fault. Sounds like not enough juice as opposed to too much. I think that if you repair the diaphram you will be just fine. Until you want to go fast. I only have limited knowledge on carbs and you have now reached my limit of advice. I think that if you get it running, you can still borrow my carb go for a test drive and then decide if there is significant improvement or not. My carb came out the box and went on at Sigma Engineering Rolling Road who said no need to change anything so it is very standard floats, pumps and jet sizes wise.

Talking of which, Ron, I bet that 390 cfm was not very standard to acheive those speeds/power output. My comments come from the factory's observations. One thing they did say that when rolling road testing a 40, the effect of the rear body shape was not taken into account. They claimed that often an additional jet size was needed to adjust for actual running speeds as the air intakes often provided a ram effect. How true this is I do not know.

The thing I like about Holleys is that they are like me, nice and simple! Maybe I was lucky and got a plug and play unit first time round?

Malcolm
 
Ron,
The engine is a 302 with Edelbrock Performer RPM cam & Performer heads.
Thanks to you all for your help, very informative.
I have decided to go for a Holley Street Avenger 670cfm. Fran Hall has very kindly arranged to purchase one for me in the US & send it over. This is some £76.00 cheaper than here in the UK. That's a big saving for me, especially as my predicted budget ran out last year!!
Regards to all, Paul.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
[ QUOTE ]
Hi Paul
Talking of which, Ron, I bet that 390 cfm was not very standard to acheive those speeds/power output. My comments come from the factory's observations. One thing they did say that when rolling road testing a 40, the effect of the rear body shape was not taken into account. They claimed that often an additional jet size was needed to adjust for actual running speeds as the air intakes often provided a ram effect. How true this is I do not know.
Malcolm

[/ QUOTE ]

Malcolm,
There isn't anything standard in NASCAR! Keep in mind this was in a stock car, not a 40, and the only thing you could probably say about the carb is that is flowed 390cfm - that is about it. What pressure? Have no idea. I don't know what the specific power output assuming 14.7:1 air/fuel 390cfm will get you, but I do know that a 650cfm carb is plently for a 302.

Best,
Ron
 

flatchat(Chris)

Supporter
As an example-? I have a good 'ole 302w that pulls like a school boy .It uses a 650 double pumper,centre pivot bowls and through a single plane "torker" intake, even a mechanical fuel pump.
Check-- power valve,accelerator pump diaphram,needle & seat,
that there is no lag @ the accelratr cam and its not sucking air else where and the float level is ok then it may need the main jets revised. They are simple and once sorted will be reliable enough for regular take off.Good luck.

DRB#17
Yellow/red
320rwhp all day /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
FWIW I've just bought a 302 fitted with a Holley 670. I test drove the engine prior to purchase & was really impressed with the performance.

I was also impressed by the smoothness of the vacuum secondaries, you can hardly notice them opening, just a smooth rush of power. This is opposed to the vacuum secondaries on my 'marine' spec 302. When the secondaries opened it felt like someone started another engine up!
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
OK so I'm the only guy that thinks that a 750 mech. secondary doublepumper works very well on a 345hp 302 crate motor. Well it does! I didn't think it would until I tried it . I was going back and forth between a 650 and 700, 714cfm carbs were used on high per 289's in the mid 60's, before I discussed this with a guy who I know that runs a 7 second prostock cammaro and has been a dealer of superperformance cobras. He went so far as to say he would give me my money back and exchange it with any other carb I wanted if I didn't like it.

The basic logic is this. With a light car like ours, 2300lb or so, the vac. sig. that is produced in the plenum of the intake maifold is not depleted as much as a heavier car over the same lenght of time it takes to increase rpms when you matt it. As the light car is accelerated, quickly going from closed to fully open butterflys, there is a rapid enough increase in rpms and thus maintains a correct flow of air in the carb and no venturi stall with associated "bog". In a heavy car, 3500lbs or so, there is a delay caused by overcoming the slower acceration because of the increased weight and the low pressure area in the intake manifold returns to atmosphere before revs increase enough to compensate. Heavy Drag cars overcome this with very low final drive ratios such as 4.11 or as low as 5.0 to 1 and very high rpm launchs. Most of our cars are 3.8 or higher and will not tolerate 4000rpm launches. Mine has a 3.44 diff and works very well when I put my foot into it from about 1200rpms. No "bog" just goooooo. Of course in a road race car engine revs are mostly up in the rev range and the problem of venturi stall is not likely to be a problem.

The plenum area of the intake manifold is also important and that is why I used a RPM preformer eldebrock. It has a larger plenum area than a performer type and thus holds a larger volume of low pressure air for a longer period of time again preventing venturi stall. The advance curve is also very important. I run mine with 33-35 degrees of total advance all in by 2400rpms.

The car runs very good thruout the rpm range and really comes on like a huge 2 stroke above 3500 rpms all the way to the self imposed low rev limmit of 6000rpm with a MSD 6AL spark box. I have no reason to believe this motor wouldn't make good power up to 6700 or so where the hyd lifters would begin to limit further useful revs.

As a note, the Trans Am cars of the 60-70's used 750-1100 holleys,the 1100 was a 3 barrel! or in later years TWO 500-600 cfm 4 barrels. They were limmited to 305 cubic inches pushrod V8's and made something like 550hp or more. These were 1 hour road races with much like the same type of use we would see during a track day. Also the 8 barrel FI systems being used on some of our 40's must flow at least 750 cfm.

CFM ratings alone are not the sole thing to consider when selection of a carb is the question. This is very much a question of ballancing the proper cam grind, intake manifold, spark curve advance, etc. with a correctly set up carb. But I will tell you that these 345 hp 302 crate motors from Ford WILL WORK VERY WELL with a 750 cfm holley and a RPM performer manifold.

As a final word my friend told me that of all the holleys he has dynoed on 302's the 750 mech.secondarys doublepumper was the closest to perfect from the box.


The down side is I'm sure I'm using more fuel. I hope I have added to the discussion, and hopefully made a little sense, without ruffleing too many feathers, but I won't be changing my 750 anytime soon.
 
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