Audi transmission problems?

Hi all, I`m currently fitting a 5 speed Audi box into an early KVA MK111 I`m building, the reasoning started as being that I`ll probably break it, but they cost next to nothing and as the bellhousing is universal across the range and they have a good reputation with parts interchange AND I have a good friend in the transmission industry I can develop it from there.
Due to a change of employment, glad to say it was voluntary and still within the motor industry, I think I may be in a position to be of some assistance to anyone running or planning to run an Audi transmission in there 40.
I`ve now joined said good friends firm and we have recently developed two heavy duty gear kits and a fork kit for the Borg Warner/ now Tremec T5 `box, this is not a sales pitch but on the off chance you are interested in this kit take a look at our site at www.gearboxman.co.uk.
As much as free publicity is great we will not be ready for the world launch and press kit release for these kits (although it is now common knowledge that they are available in the UK among the Cosworth and TVR boys) untill Jan`/Feb` 2004.

Back to the point, we would like to hear of any failures or problems in general that any of you guys running Audi units are finding.
If we can find an inherant weekness in any component or a design fault that is causing problems, or maybe even a perfect ratio that is not available, we are in a position to have new up rated parts made to spec`.
But, and there`s always a but! there has to be a market for the product, low volume production is very expensive, hence the need for feed back from those of you running Audi units, the more the better.
What do you like about the box, what don`t you like, where can we improve it?
Please post here or email me direct at [email protected] with any comments or sugestions you may have.
If we can produce a gear kit that is in demand we will produce it, it`s up to you guys to tell us what you want, and yep, I get to fit and develop the prototype in my own car. Ah, the sacrifices I have to make in the name of sience.
Thanks for your time guys.
Stuart.
[email protected]
P.S. we`re currently running in XS of 600BHP/500lb torque with the T5 kit with no failures to date.

Hi Stuart,

I have an Audi 016 box in my garage but I haven't run it yet. I've heard the input shaft will twist on these with V8 torque, but not having taken one apart yet, I don't know if there is room to beef up the input shaft. I was talking with Hershal Byrd yesterday who had recently been shown an Audi box from an Audi 4000 turbo Quattro and he said the input shaft was significantly larger than that on the 2WD 016 that we use. If a new input shaft were possible, it would be nice to go with standard 23-tooth Ford splines so we have a good selection of aftermarket clutches.

In short, I think if someone were to offer some durability upgrades to the 016 box, similar to the Derek Bell upgrades to the Renault transaxle, and if they were proven in the field like the Derek Bell/Renault boxes have been, then you would find a market of sufficient size to merit taking the plunge.

PS - I always heard that the failure mode of the T5 was from the case flexing.

The biggest complaint is the gears are too low, resulting
in near useless 1st gear and too high rpm in 5th.
RF40 is supposed to be releasing a new 5th gear, but that
doesn't address the lower gear issue.

I understand swapping the ring/pinion to a 3.38 (from Porsche 944) would make a big difference, but I've yet
to hear from anyone who has done it, so don't know if that
alone makes the lower gears more V8 friendly.

3.38 gearsets are $ 900 or more from Porsche...so I suspect
there is a market if someone can offer sets for less.
And if someone has the ability to design an even higher
set (lower numerically) that could be a real advantage.

MikeD

I think two things that would have a big impact if the cost is controlled: different ring and pinion gears (~3.1:1 - 3.4:1). Also can the case be modified such that it can be run inverted. I wondered if the case could be machined to accept two removable output shaft covers (not just the one side) making the box symmetric thus allowing inversion.

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Stuart,

I have an Audi 016 box in my garage but I haven't run it yet. I've heard the input shaft will twist on these with V8 torque, but not having taken one apart yet, I don't know if there is room to beef up the input shaft. I was talking with Hershal Byrd yesterday who had recently been shown an Audi box from an Audi 4000 turbo Quattro and he said the input shaft was significantly larger than that on the 2WD 016 that we use. If a new input shaft were possible, it would be nice to go with standard 23-tooth Ford splines so we have a good selection of aftermarket clutches.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did the Audi 4000 use the 016 trans? Many Quattro 016's do use the same input shafts as the FWD 016's (same p/n's), but the output shafts are not the same. The Quattro uses a hollow output shaft (sans pinion gear), and a separate pinion shaft coupled through a Thorsen.

Some time back, I e-mailed an Audi drag racers forum in the UK. I figured if anyone had any durability/failure history, they would surely be the ones'. My e-mail went un-answered. Anyone on this forum from across the pond know of this organization, and how best to contact them? I would think this would be a good source for this type of information.

Andy

My understanding is that none of the CAV equiped with the Audi have had failures. We have had orders for something like 80 vehicles, and I would guess something like 40 have been totally finished at this time.

I am still trying to break mine, but so far no luck. Just kidding!

Pat: So your girl friend (right?) is letting you drive /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif. Just kidding with you!

Gary,
Actually its my wife, and she does drive it more than me but I get to do all the work on it. I raced her in my Pantera recently and she beat me easily. I could tell I would never hear the end of that one so I raced her again with a nice down-shift before really putting my foot into it (we were on the freeway). I got a good jump on her and thought I had her for sure, but she pulled right up next to me, smiled, and easily pulled away. I don't think I can put a larger cam in my Pantera! Guess you just can't beat a GT40, even if your wife is driving it.

Sounds like fun! It was nice meeting the two of you this year, and hopefully we can get together for next years show at Monterey.

[ QUOTE ]
My understanding is that none of the CAV equiped with the Audi have had failures. We have had orders for something like 80 vehicles, and I would guess something like 40 have been totally finished at this time.

[/ QUOTE ]


They will, sooner or later if there is enough power in front of it. I think yours will be able to munch one without too much of a problem at all! I think the milder 302s are probably not too bad on them, but your stroker or some of the engines like I have and others are using are going to be rougher on them.

The Audi tranny isn't the best in the world but it helps if you start with a healthy one I think. I've got a new one so maybe I'll fare better than the old used one I was going to use. We'll see.

True about mine probably munching, but I am using the RBT-5. I hope it hangs in there /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ah!!!! Nice! I think you told me that but I forgot. Some guys haven't had Audi problems, but others have. I think some of it is a function of how good the box is/was to start with. Some of the CAV's I've seen have very mild motors, like the one on Ebay now, but ones like yours would eat one alive.

R

What can help the Audi transmission to survive is to have the rear casting machined out and a steel insert added to take the bearing. The casting does not have enough meat on the lip to take the power when clutch is dropped as aparently it tends to want to pull the bearing forward which can break the housing.

Mike,
I just got word that the 944 Turbo ring and pinion won't fit in the Audi box as the bearing cage is larger than the non turbo model. Machining might be a possibility.

Jim Downard

I agree that you need to start with a good OI6 gearbox. We have used almost 500 HP in front of an OI6 and is has survived. It realy is not all about HP. Drivers style of driving and size of tyres are just two of the more important things that can wreck a gearbox.

I have just turned 185,000 miles on my BMW and still on the same clutch. My staff will tell you that I do not spare the Horses when I drive her but I am easy on machinery.

We recommend up to 400 hp for the OI6 and lift that to 500 hp for the OIE (6 speed). The OIE has over 20% larger gears and a larger seperation between the shafts. I have a 4WD Audi box that I will be looking at shortly but the OIE is a VERY good box.

My concern is that everybody wants a bullet proof box at a very low price. This just will not happen. The cost of the OIE is higher but as a NEW box they are not expensive. On the other hand at $200 a pop for OI6 boxes in the US a converbelt positioned behind the car seems a reasonable option !!!!! or does it ??????

Best wishes,

Robert

$200 depends on a lot I learned!

I had a $200 016 but it was going to cost about $500 to have it rebuilt as it had some water damage and other nice features.It didn't seem to make sense to stuff a $1000 Quaffie diff into a questionable box.

So, I bought a brand new one for $1200 from German Transaxle which seemed a safer way to go. The diff is in, it is mated to the engine, and if I can get the car off the dolly before Christmas all of it is going into the car.

R

Robert

Most of us don't need a "bulletproof" box.
But we all want a fully useable 5-speed.
My concern is that the new 5th gear you are working on
will be great to pull the highway revs down, but that won't
fix the poor lower gear ratios. Still...I suspect you'll
sell a bunch. Heck I'll probably buy one if we can't
get "U" boxes from Europe for a reasonable price.

I never did see the price for the new 01E? How much?
Thx

MikeD

Mike,

I pay just over 4000 pounds for them in Europe. I am happy to forward them at that price to the US.

Regarding the OI6 the first gear is an integral part of the input shaft and to replace them would require a new to be welded on and this is what we will do with the race boxes. The real weak spot is the ring gear and pinion. If these could be manufactured and I am yet to sorce these parts than the box could be easily handling HUGE power. If any one has a connection for the ring gear and pinion please contact me. The fifth gear is purely as you said Mike, a way to reduce highway revs.

Best wishes,

Robert

Ok, This is what I know from someone who says he knows.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif While I was visiting Rolf Brunkhosrt he took me and Jerry to a neat little shop that was doing Rolf's gearbox. We met a fellow there that managed a Porsche race team. His team had won Lemans before. As we were discussing the transmissions he asked why we did not use the 4000 Turbo Quatro box. He said that it has the same shaft in it as what the porsche turbos run and the inners are virtually the same. We asked about the shaft for the rear wheels and he said that it could be carefully cut down to the right size and fitted with the smaller rear cover. Also he mentioned something about an oiling system off a porsche that would help longivity.
I think the Quatro 4000 Turbo he is refering to was made in the 1980s. The 016 turbo boxes are supposed to have larger bearing races and they are not the same as the other 5N and 3U in that respect. Possibly some of you guys that have reference material can check this out. It. seems that this forum is hot on the trail to finding a good solution and I think this note sharing is good for all of us.

I hope this info helps us all find the right combo.

Hersh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif