Ford Dealers please read

Do not make posts here if you are selling your GT above MSRP. We already know that a multitude of dealers are willing to sell above MSRP. Post of this nature will be deleted.

However, if you are willing to sell the new GT at MSRP, it's ok to post, provided you also post the MSRP.

This is a 'living' policy which may change, subject to Ron's approval.

Respectfully,

Master Earl
Moderator

The post said GT's for sale or wanted...I made a legitimate post and all you have done is talk bad about it...yes the car is selling above MSRP...that is the going price...I listed it here so that people who were interested could have information on how to obtain one from me...the forrum did not say for MSRP or below only. Not to start a flame war but I am just trying to make a post about a car for sale.
Thanks

This is a new policy. You are always welcomed to participate in the forum, but you can't pitch selling the GT if it's going to be over MSRP. The owner of this forum creates the rules. I concur with the rules.

I think the point here is to make sure the forum is not abused for someone else's personal gain. We're the supporters of the forum and pay to keep it going, either with time or money. I think the thing that personally offends me is someone registers and their first post is to advertise a car for sale. And it is just that, plain and simple, advertising. And advertising for free at that. Plus, you probably don't have a better audience anywhere on the net, certainly not at that price.

So, is the solution to keep new people from posting unless they offer a car at MSRP? No, probably not. However it might be that in order to advertise a car for sale, GT or GT40, then the seller should pay a fee to list the car. Brent Mills does it on the Cobra Forum and it works well. Plus I'm sure it helps with running the site.

So, I'd like some input from others on this matter as well. How do you think we should handle the situation?

Ron, I think there is a difference between 1)private individuals advertising a car- which they ought to be able to do here at a bargain price, especially if they are Forum members and have donated to keep it going and 2) companies who build GT40s who ought to pay a bit more and 3) Ford dealers who are advertising the Ford GT which will only come at a HUGE markup. The concensus I've seen on the Forum, if I read it right, is that nobody's thrilled about the price-gouging that is already going on (and the car's not even out yet). Clearly Ford and the dealers are milking it for everything it's worth. I find this greedy and obnoxious and don't want to participate. If they want to advertise here, they can pay a rate based on a percentage of their asking price. That ought to discourage them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

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.....and 3) Ford dealers who are advertising the Ford GT which will only come at a HUGE markup. The concensus I've seen on the Forum, if I read it right, is that nobody's thrilled about the price-gouging that is already going on (and the car's not even out yet). Clearly Ford and the dealers are milking it for everything it's worth. I find this greedy and obnoxious and don't want to participate. If they want to advertise here, they can pay a rate based on a percentage of their asking price. That ought to discourage them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

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I think that about wraps it up.

Don't want to start a flame with the kind people that run and work on this forum but have to disagree with this new policy.

If you have $140,000.00 to pay for an automobile, then you should just as easily have $225,000.00, in this league there's not much difference between the two.

And if you're going to not allow any posts for cars over MSRP then your going to have ZERO posts. In other words you're leaving people that are coming here for information in the dark.

Just look at the car, it easily compares to a Lamborghini Diablo ($240,000 MSRP), and it's made in AMERICA for gosh sakes. When was the last time that a car like this was made by one of the big three and actually made it to this level of production? Let's see, I would have to say NEVER. Unless you count the 7 or so MK III's that were sold here.

So here we have a very rare car which shows American ingenuity like never before and the factory is tossing the hurting dealers a bone by listing it way under it's value, and the exceedingly rich want to put some money back into dealerships where hard working Americans work, then more power to them. We should be encouraging them not discouraging.

And anybody that whines about the cost should take an old Porsche mechanic friend of mines words to heart. If you have to ask the price then you shouldn't be driving the car.

This is an exciting time to be involved with Ford and their new car, AND it's generating loads of interest in the kits which helps everyone here, why should we not want to be involved to the fullest extent?

I think the markup is just a marketing ploy anyway and should be expected, MSRP was set low so to hype the desirability and mystique when the big numbers come in. It's happened with every limited production big factory exotic in recent times, why should Ford be any different?

If you can't afford it then look for a used MK V or a good kit, lots of them will be faster/nicer anyway.

We must distinguish between an item's price and its value here. The MSRP is a price set by the manufacturer based on some formula which takes into account the cost of building the car and anumber of other factors. It is not the value of the item, nor does it set an upper bound on the value. Certainly we're all used to paying below sticker for cars, and some negotiating room is generally factored in to the MSRP to allow for this. Nobody seems to complain when they can buy an item for less than the MSRP.

What has happened here is that Ford has created something whose value is greater than the MSRP. In a free-market system, the price will adjust accordingly. Is it price gouging on the part of the dealers? I don't think so. They will sell the car for what the market will bear. The buyer makes the ultimate decision as to whether he is willing to pay a given price for the car. Most of us don't want to play the game, and that's fine - just don't buy one until you can find it a price that you're willing to pay, or until you decide that the going price is something you're willing to pay. But don't expect any dealer to sell one of the initial batch of cars at or below MSRP (except maybe if you're one of their best customers). To do so is asking them to sell below market and transfer the additional value to you. You could potentially then turn around and sell the thing at a profit and keep that money. Even if you just plan to drive the car and not try to profit from it, you'd still be receiving something of greater value than you paid.

I think you could have a rule that says any for sale item must state a price, and charging for ads (or say, for any item where the asking price is over $100,000US /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) is a reasonable rule to implement. Allowing dealers (or individuals) to fish for prospects so the seller can play them off against each other in an auction situation is probably something to be avoided - that's what ebay is for. And I do expect that once the cars are actually delivered, there will be people in here who have managed to acquire one and are looking to sell it at a profit.

I *told* Ford to do something like they are doing with the European allotment - qualify the buyers and sell the cars to those who are (by some formula) the most deserving, rather than those who are willing to spend the most, but I guess they figure this will create more buzz and/or help out their dealers the most...

Excellent points by all.

However, I think the jest of the policy is being missed.

Do we really want every Ford Dealer to post here if it's just to pitch their GT and to let us know they are willing to sell it over MSRP?

Heck, we already know that most Ford Dealers are willing to ask for more than MSRP.

If the value really is in the $200k range, then Ford should have had the MSRP be in that range.

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If you have $140,000.00 to pay for an automobile, then you should just as easily have $225,000.00, in this league there's not much difference between the two.







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I don't know about Seattle, but a hundred g's ain't what it use to be, at least not in Bakersfield. Heck, I'm just a poor country boy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Do we really want every Ford Dealer to post here if it's just to pitch their GT and to let us know they are willing to sell it over MSRP?

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Sure, why not? I think it would be amusing. Especially if we make them pay for the privilege /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif It would give us a good idea of the actual street price of the cars, and we could watch price trends over time.

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If the value really is in the $200k range, then Ford should have had the MSRP be in that range.

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I'm not sure I agree with this. Ford is likely using pretty close to its standard pricing formula. And they probably have good marketing reasons for doing so. They are already making comparisons with Ferrari, and this allows them to say something like "our $150K car (MSRP) beats the pants off of the $300K (MSRP) Ferrari XYZ." Plus, the initial frenzy and bidding up of prices creates a buzz that is intended to help Ford's overall sales. Get people into the showrooms. Stuff like that. Also, the value changes over time. It may be that in a couple of years, after the novelty has worn off, after a few spectacular wrecks by people who have more money than driving skill, the market comes back down to earth and the things can be had for MSRP or even less. [Full disclosure: when I moved to Utah for job-related reasons, I sold my house in the Bay Area in California. It was a seller's market at the time. My real estate agent and I had no idea what the house would sell for. I set the asking price (MSRP) at a value that I would be happy with, but knew it was below the market value of the home. Got six offers, some (including the highest $ amount) with contingencies. Per my agent's recommendation, countered all six with the highest offer price and no contingencies. Four dropped out, but of the remaining two, one (which originally had a lower offer but no contingencies) raised the offer above the previous high offer and kept no contingencies. The other (originally the high offer) kept the offer at the same price but removed the contingency. Had I set the original asking price at what the house ultimately sold for, I probably would not have gotten any offers at all. That's just the way the market worked at that time. I don't consider myself a scumbag for selling the house for the highest offer at a price the buyer was willing to pay... Of course, I didn't go onto some website and post that it was for sale to try to drum up additional buyers either...]

One other thought on limiting people who just come to advertise: is there a way to say you can't post something for sale unless you've made a certain number of posts (e.g., you must have reached a level of "Three Tenths" or higher to post something for sale)? And of course if people try to cheat the system by making garbage posts just to up their count, they get banned.

Steve, I can relate to your real estate example in many ways. I'm also a Real Estate Broker. I've sold many homes above asking price in a hot market. But the property all appraised for that price. Homes, generally, don't depreciate like vehicles do. Entirely different critter.

In regards to saying that someone must have a certain amount of posts before they can offer something for sell, well, wouldn't that basically ban the Ford Dealers that come here just to pitch their vehicle? I seriously doubt that these guys are really interested in being active members here. So far, none have shown any interest other than trying to sell something.

Acura NSX MSRP 45K sold for as much as 90 to 100K

Dodge Viper MSRP 50K sold for as much as 100K

So the Ford GT at 140K MSRP should go for up to 280K

And the rumor (did I read it here?) that Ford is only going to sell 3,000 total over a 2 year period and then stop selling, the price will never go down and these cars will only appreciate. Unlike the NSX and Viper, which they kept releasing every year, sell for less than MSRP and you can pick up used for half that.

MK-V's for sale

1144 $225,000 OBO

1139 $950,000

1140 $425,000

these aren't original GT40's and they are used with no warranty, so from this standpoint $225,000 new doesn't look that bad.


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"I don't know about Seattle, but a hundred g's ain't what it use to be, at least not in Bakersfield. Heck, I'm just a poor country boy."

Same in Seattle except it's way out of my league, I'm just a poor poor city boy.

I'm not sure this thread should be about morality or old cars or insulting dealers - I have my views - Jim picked up on my original point and that was that if Ford dealers or anyone else wants a plug for a car over msrp they should pay for it - a hundred bucks (or whatever) is nothing to them and yet a huge help to this invaluable forum

I think that this brings us neatly to a pivotal point in the discussion so far. The sellers view is that he should sell his commodity (in this case the Ford GT) according to market forces. The epithet 'what the market will bear' has been used and illustrates the point. Advertising is also a commodity, and subject to the same market forces. There is no reason why the seller should on the one hand gleefully accept 'market forces' where they are to his own advantage, but reject, or try to avoid market forces where they are not. As far as advertising goes, here we have a group of enthusiasts where the take up is potentially high, hitting the right group of people in the sellers eyes. Companies spend a lot on finding out who to target, and here in this case, it is handed on a plate. This is the reason for the forum possibly becoming a target for GT dealers with the business acumen to realise it. So, morality taken into account, and market forces being their guiding star, they should be delighted to make a contribution to the forum in line with what the forum requires. What the forum is likely to charge will be very cheap in relation to normal advertising market prices for such a well targeted group. So I agree with other forum members on this point.
Finally, we are all enthusiasts in this forum, and I for one have an aversion to any enthusiasts car selling at well beyond MSRP, taking it out of reach of some true enthusiasts, and into the fashion accessory market. This I have to accept as being a reality, but hope at least one forum member will make it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Dave

Agree, dealers should be charged something, a "voluntary" contribution, but it shouldn't be too much where it leaves people that want info in the dark.

And I know someone who browses the forum, not sure if he's a member (he should be), but he is getting a GT, we'll see.

To combine a couple of good ideas, I would propose that any vehicle for sale over $100K would incur a fee .5%. This would apply to anyone no matter who they are. We all know that new car models have been the subject of price gouging and demanding what the market will bear. That's capitalizm, warts and all. Sometimes its ugly but it beats the hell out of what ever is in second place. It disgusts me as much as anyone. But you know what would happen if Ford forced the dealers to sell the GT at MSRP so some of us everyday workin' men might have a chance at one, don't you. Many of those everyday workin' men would turn around and sell them for $300K and who could blame them any more than we can blame the greedy dealers from running the price up as high as it will go. Otherwise, just remove the forum. It is the only fair way to handle it I'm afraid. But then you'll have to do the same with GT40 Cars For Sale. So, I say we just take our cut and skip to the next entry in the Ford GT - For Sale or Wanted forum.

Regards,
Lynn

My opinion, for what its worth, (not much). rf, cav, era, nz, drb, mda, etc all come up with a price based on what it takes for them to keep them in business. Could they charge less? We all seem to think so (based on the number of "The more compition there is the cheaper the cars will be" comments. My opinion is cheaper comes at a price but i digress. So we all think that they overcharge, yet ford dealers are getting slammed for overcharging. The only difference being is that someone else said that hey, you can sell these cars at X dollars and they arent, they are charging more. Personally, i could care less what they charge, if people will pay it, by all means, who wouldnt sell it for that? You and i would, in a heartbeat.
My only solution is, if a dealer is willing to sell at MSRP then he is more than welcome to advertise in the for sale section. If they want to sell over, make it known that it would be appreciated that they use the "suscribe" button and at least be a contributing member. We will all know they did by the little star they get. If they dont, and want to post anyway, that just shows that hey, they are probably on the greedy side and why would i buy my car from them. Either way, leave it up to their own honor, thats the easiest way to tell if they really are an enthusiast or are just in it for the $ and the easy pickings.

Have you ever wondered what these Ford Dealers think about our GT40 replicas??!!

should we welcome people here who at a drop of a dime would call all kit cars "plastic toys"?

These guys would even denigrate a real GT40 if it Conflicted/interfered with their sale. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I think that there are a lot of Ford dealers that like and are impressed with the replica GT40's. Beach Ford has approached me about putting my GT40 on their showroom floor when I'm not using it during the winter months. This was a few years ago, long before the GT was coming; the manager just loved the car and thought that it could bring some traffic into the showroom. Freedom Ford has had replica Cobras on their showroom floor as well.