302W Information Needed - Desperate !

Peter Delaney

GT40s Supporter
A big "Thank You" to all who helped me out with the 351 vs 302 issue. It looks like a major problem to fit a 351W into the DRB, now that I have the roll-bar & rear stays welded in, so I am stuck with a 302W.

My problem is that to get the car registered in NSW (the only seriously "anti-car" State here in Oz), I need to either :

a) Fit a late model Oz engine which complies to the latest emissions rules (ADR 79/00) - problem : it appears that only the latest quad-cam engines can meet these rule. Fitting a quad-cam into the DRB would be a much bigger problem that the 351W referred to previously.

b) Fit a late '90s US passenger car engine - these are deemed to meet the ADR 79/00 standards, but MUST be able to be proven to have come from a US passenger car, not a truck, SUV, or crate motor. The "proof" is in the engine number - apparently, many early '90s Ford engines had no engine number at all, but later '90s models had engine numbers stamped on the blocks, & these numbers are supposed to have parts of the VIN number buried in them (sufficient to be able to prove that the engine was installed in a "passenger car", etc).

End of inroductory waffle ! Now for the questions - does anyone know :

1) When Ford started stamping meaningful engine numbers on the blocks of US passenger cars ?

2) When the last pushrod 302 engines were available in US passenger cars ?

3) What the engine number format was for these engines ?

Any help with these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Kind Regards,

Peter D.
 

Ron Earp

Admin
In the US 1995 Mustangs were the last fox bodied car to have the 5.0.

The engine continued in the Ford Explorer to, don't quote me on this one, I think until 1998, but it might be a year off. In the explorer the engine wore GT40P heads and a different intake but on the whole was more powerful than the standard 302HO found from 87-95. Also had a crank fired ignition and is a good, cheap source for such a setup.
 
Peter,

This might be opening an even bigger can of worms, but have you checked the dimensions on the Chevy 350 LS1 / LS6 from the Corvette and Camaro? (Holden has a smaller version of this engine) That is the only compact (pushrod) V8 to be offered for sale after 1995 in a US passenger car and is still in production. They make 350 to 405 HP stock and will pick up another 25 to 30 HP with a free flow exhaust. Deck height is 9.240” on this engine; I don’t have other dimensions but believe it is a little bit shorter than the Ford front to back.

This would mean different motor mounts, and finding or making a Bellhousing would be required. RBT http://www.rbttrans.com/ might be able to help or point you in the right direction on the bellhousing. You would also probably have to put a Holden (Front sump) oil pan on it (part # 12561541). It is a fairly drastic solution, but may be the only one possible given your situation.


Kevin
 
The Explorer is an SUV...so if they don't allow SUV, that
won't help. And there hasn't been a 351 in a passenger car
(except the 1994 Cobra race car) in 20 years.
If you want to stay Ford....how about the single cam mod motor? They are now pretty cheap in the US, and much
narrower than the quad cam.

The LS1 will surely fit...seen GT40's with SBC's already.
Kennedy makes the adapter parts for SBC to G50.

MikeD
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
OK Nows here's where we need to think outside of the box. How about a 4 banger Honda,VW,Toyota or some such thing. I think the VW's have been mated to transaxles and I believe some of the Toyotas may have been.

So you guys over there build up a current cheep 4 banger/ tranaxle combo for all of your temporary govermental needs. Fit would never be a problem and even the exaust would be easy with plenty of room for a cat. etc.

Just a though.
 
If we are thinking outside the box, and as long as we are spending Peter's money and not mine, the Ferrari V8 from the 360 Modena is current production and would probably fit.

Kevin
 

Lynn Larsen

Lynn Larsen
Peter,

How about a Jag 4.0L V8? There you have a Ford product built in England (I think); how much more suitable can you get than that? I would have to think that there are some performance parts for these lurking around as well. Maybe not in the US, but somewhere in world. These for after you get all of your OKs and get it registered.

Speaking of that, do they regularly inspect your vehicles to make sure they haven't been modified after registration?

I hate this kind of bull crap. It is so silly to harass people who build their own cars as a hobby. There are so few of us and the cars are driven so few miles that our environmental impact doesn't even approach rounding error in the impact of the overall vehicular fleet. Generally, coal fired power plants pollute exponentially more than we do and I am talking big exponents not measly single digit exponents. Peter you have helped me out more than once; email me if there is anything I can do to help win one for our side.

Regards,
Lynn
 

Ron Earp

Admin
I think a 1994-1995 Mustang 5.0L motor would be what you need. US production (I owned one) and should be legal from what you write. Gernally get them for $500 at a yard, running shape, with some miles.

Other than that I'm with Kevin on this one and I'm a Ford man. If you don't want to fit current Ford production then the SB Chevy will give you the most power in the most compact package. The Ford SOHC and DOHC engines are monsters compared to cam in block designs. And, as much as I hate to say it, the new Chevy SBs are nice designs.

ADR seems to be a pain in the ass but I suppose it is one reason Robert and RF has been doing the mod motors so the cars are easily registered.

As for convential V8s I'm out of ideas. Wouldn't be any advantage to using a Lexus/Toyota V8 over the Ford, still big. Got Mopar power down there? Could be an option with their new motors although the "Hemi" power is nothing more than marketing gimicks the motors are competitive in power with the Chevy SBs.

Lotus Twin turbo V8s were in production until last year and those are not so hard to come by. Not Unobtainium like Ferrari motors. The power can be stunning with intercoolers (not factory) and they are reasonably durable, it is the rest of the car that isn't.

However, if I were you I'd rig up the cheapest 4 clyinder/trannie combo I could that is easily fitted and run it through the test. Then put my motor back in. But, that is me and I don't know the whole story.
 
The Chev/Holden LS1 5.7 is widely available over here. I have a 300kW version in my daily driver ute. It would pass ADR's as a current production engine. Peter, do you want to borrow mine for rego? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Missed your post Lynn, good suggestion. The Supercharged Jag motor is 390 hp and can make a bunch more. It has a good intercooler and runs very modest boost levels. Would be perfect - it is Ford, makes good power, and with their new GT being blown certainly has a tie in. The NA version is sort of weak, but check out the blown motor in the XJRs - nice stuff.
 

Peter Delaney

GT40s Supporter
Hi Guys,

Thank you so much for all the responses. On balance, it looks like I am caught between a rock & hard place in trying to get the car rego'd in NSW with a Ford engine that will actually fit in the car without huge mods. It seems like I can use a US pre-96 302 pushrod engine, but can not prove that it came from a passenger car (no auditable engine numbers stamped on ). Much as I love GM engines, I just couldn't bring myself to put one on a '40.

The problem with "temporary engines" is that the RTA keeps checking engine Nos every year - if what is on the engine is different from that on the paperwork, you get de-registered &/or go to jail !

As to the Ferrari, Lotus & Jaguar options, my budget will not run to these extremes (let alone the collateral damage from a divorce) !!

So, maybe the only real option is to sell the car to someone in QLD (where it can be rego'd with any replacement stock Oz engine less than 5 years old - yes, I am told that pushrod 302's were still being sold here in that time-frame). Perhaps such a buyer might let me rent/borrow the car back ??

Kind Regards,

Peter D. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
Would it help if the whole 1994/5 Mustang came over intact?
Would that prove the motor came from a car?
They aren't that expensive (especially if wrecked).

MD
 
Looks like you AUS guys are pretty much in the same boat as we are here in Austria.... I cant wait to get in trouble when I try to register my Cobra. I hope to bypass some off the formalities with the Florida paperwork that I have for my car, saying it is a 1965 Ford roadster.

Would an old US title help you, or do you still need to fullfill current requirements?

If you only needed to have a certain number on the engine, the castings # can be changed. I spoke to an engine builder in the US, and he said they do it all the time on racecars so they fall in a different class. He starts by grinding off the original number on the block. Then he makes a copy of the number he wants on a different block (one with an old number on it) using clay. Next he fills up the numbers with JB Weld (I think it is epoxy glue, but Lab Metal might be better) and lets them dry just a bit. Then some more JB Weld on the block stick the numbers on there and hold it for a while. In the end take off the clay and then use some thick engine paint. According to him, there is no way anybody can tell the difference.

I might have to use this process to make my '89 302 block a '65 289 to match the title number, since they are the same visually anyway.

The ridiculous part of this is that the car the engine came out of was registered here before. So I am not even further polluting the environment, but only changing the vehicle that I am doing it with....

Hope this helps,
Lukas
 
Hmmm, this may be a bit of a stretch but ....

how about an old 90s CHP Mustang? The California Highway
Patrol sued a number of 92 Mustangs for a while, and they come
up for sale often. Factory Five guys love these cars because
a) the engines are already pumped up a little b) the smog
controls are minimized and c) they are technically smog exempt.

These engines might have specific codes to indicate they
came from CHP smog exempt Mustangs. And there is no disputing
they came from "passenger cars" as opposed to anything else.
Anyone have more detail on this?

Ian
 

Ron Earp

Admin
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, this may be a bit of a stretch but ....

how about an old 90s CHP Mustang? The California Highway
Patrol sued a number of 92 Mustangs for a while, and they come
up for sale often. Factory Five guys love these cars because
a) the engines are already pumped up a little b) the smog
controls are minimized and c) they are technically smog exempt.

These engines might have specific codes to indicate they
came from CHP smog exempt Mustangs. And there is no disputing
they came from "passenger cars" as opposed to anything else.
Anyone have more detail on this?

Ian

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'll find this to be a well-played myth. The Mustang Registry along with other folks (including myself) investigated this back in the day and there are no differences in the car with respect to power and emissions. They did carry a higher output alternator, a HD fan clutch, and silicone water hoses however as part of the police package. They are a few websites that give the specifics but power and emissions are the same as the garden varitey 5.0Ls I've owned in the past. In many states used them from 1990-1993, not just the 92 variants. Plus, some even used eariler models as well, including the carb 85 HO, but these were far less common and were before the heyday of the "5.0L Police Interceptor" for what that phrase is worth.

But, back to the thread. These engines wouldn't help you any more than a 92 HO from a Mustang or Lincoln MKVII, both rated (then) at 225hp 300ft/lb torque. They got downrated later to 205 hp but that is a different story...
 
Peter,
You are self-employed right? What if your business opened an "office" in Queesnland and then you would have a QLD address. Rego the car up there, and keep it in NSW. It might cost a few bucks tp set up, but would be cheaper than some other alternatives.It might be worth a look. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
Great idea. You might find a fellow GT40 lover with a bussiness that would not mind letting you use his address for your other "office."
 
Peter,

I hope this isn't too stupid a suggestion 'cos I know that with each unworkable suggestion you get you would become that little bit more frustrated. So I'm making this suggestion just to make sure that you have exhausted all possibilities before doing the unthinkable of selling.

Land Rover is actually a part of the Ford group of companies and they have a 4.4 ltr V8 in their engine range. The UK guys might be able to help here since I think that the Rover V8 engines are commonly used in home-built mid-engined cars there. Consequently you might be able to get something off the shelf shipped from the UK.


PS. These engines can go like the wind and sound absolutely incredible when tricked up properly. Just have a listen to a TVR.
 
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