Paint Shop Hourly Charges

I talked to a paint shop the other day and they told me their hour labor charge was $85/hour. I am curious what you all have found to be the labor charges at the paint shops you have dealth with.

Sometimes it is a better deal to go flat rate for the job. Mine involved some fiberglass work as well. When done I'll put the calculator to it.
Bill

At the risk of seeming like a complete idiot, I think that I just expect everyone to be as honest as I am (I guess that proves I am a complete idiot), here is what prompted the poll.

My car has been in the paint shop for a full 10 months. The body did have issues, that I won't dispute. Several coats of gel coat were applied to the exterior of the body without the proper inclusion of wax or sealing with mold release. As a result, the gel coat never cured properly and had remained tacky for the 4 years since manufacture. In order to effectively sand the body, the gel coat was washed off with lacquer thinner. Once, gone a large number of pin holes were revealed that had to be dealt with. The front and rear clips were the worst. The spyder and the doors were not unusual. I had already found and repaired virtually all of the voids that were found in the vicinity of tight radii.

Now the business that is doing the work is a Hot Rod shop. I chose them since they had done quite a number of fiberglass Hot Rod bodies. But the Hot Rods and the occasional insurance job get the majority of the time and, hence, the ordeal of nearly a year now in getting the car painted. I have been to the shop on a weekly basis through out. And had made one payment of $3K.

On my last visit, after doing all the prep drilling for the side windows prior to paint, the partner that I have been dealing with the most (there are 2), says to me, "Lynn we have now reached 200 hours of work on your car and at $85.00 an hour that is $17,000." "We'd like to get another check from you." Once I somewhat caught my breath, I asked, "That doesn't include the materials either does it?" He told me that would be another $1500.

I was and still am totally flabbergasted. I can't believe they have 200 hours in the car; especially, with the majority of my weekly trips finding nothing done on the car since the last visit. Ron and I both talked to them initially and neither one of us remembers a figure of $85.00 per hour and I am sure one or both of us would have remembered THAT!

A this point I am feeling somewhat helpless. How do I prove they don't have that much time in the car? How do I prove they didn't quote $85/hr; as I recall it was $65/hr. There wasn't a written agreement and they wouldn't give me an estimate because they said they would have no way to tell until they got into it (I had asked several times after the work had commenced.) I kind of feel that I am forced to bend over and grit my teeth.

Any great minds out there with an alternative to taking my f____ing like a man?

Thanks,
Lynn

PS: Someday I will write a primer on "HOW NOT TO BUILD A KIT CAR!"

Lynn

I COMPLETELY sympathize with you. 10 years ago I did the exact same thing on a Road Runner I restored. The shop came
recommended, did really nice work, and the owner was
very gracious. He quoted me an hourly rate and an
"estimated" number of hours to do the job.
So I did the math and "assumed" my final bill would
be close to that...around $ 7 k.

When the car was delivered, I was delighted by the quality,
but when they handed me a bill for $ 13,000 I almost
fainted on the spot. The owner apologized for the
"overage" but he assured me there was "hidden"
damage that accounted for the extra work.

Fortunately the car was already in my garage when he
handed me the bill, so I was able to convince them that
his "overage" should have been approved prior to work,
and we ended up splitting the difference.
But if the car was still in his shop, I suspect I would not have been able to negotiate much.

In your case, the lack of any written estimate is difficult.
In court it would end up being your word against his.
I assume they kept time sheets documenting the work.
If they didn't, that's a serious issue most judges
would have a problem with, and something you may be able
to negotiate a settlement with these guys.

After that experience I promised myself I would NEVER
contract any type of service work without a written
estimate including a not to exceed number.
Otherwise there is no incentive to keep the job under
a given budget. And if a shop won't provide this,
walk away....there are others who will.

MikeD

Ugh...Lynn, that sucks. I take it the vendor you're dealing with is holding your car hostage?

I think your only recourse is to negotiate with the guy. Tell him that you clearly were told $65/hr for the shop rate, and ask him how much he pays the guys that put in most of the hours on the car. My guess is he had minimum-wage monkeys doing most of the work, and he's trying to get a 10.0 labor multiplier. Try to get him to tell you what his cost in the car is, tell him that you expect him to make a fair profit, but that you need to meet somewhere between his cost and $17,000.

Best of luck to you Lynn..

Lynn,

I just picked myself off the floor after reading your post /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif I can only imagine what you felt when you heard ‘SEVENTEEN THOUSAND’. I truly could cry over a beer with you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
If they had it for ten months, then 200 hours, IMHO, doesn’t seem too far outta reach. That’s 25 days @ 8 hrs. I would offer a final payment of $10,000 otherwise take my chances with a judge. I believe a judge would side with you if presented with the facts as stated and see that your offer is reasonable. A business usually carries a bigger burden to be fair and equitable. Don’t forget, it will cost the body shop additional expenses to mount a defense in court.

Again, sorry to hear. BTW what would it cost to go out and purchase those particular items again? If cheaper or somewhat close, you have some leverage as well as evidence in court. ‘What reasonable person would pay someone in excess what they could purchase new for the same or less money?’ (Lynn, that doesn’t mean you /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Good luck

Tim

I installed a skylight in my apartment...
The people who live above me are furious! --
Stephen Wright

I'm on my lunch hour and figured I'd respond with my 0.02.

I'm one record for not remembering any $85/hr because I knew what Hershal and Robert had told me it'd take in hours to get a good body prep and at $85/hr I'd never be able to afford it.

I'm having a hard time coming up with 200 hours in the car. I've seen it and yes, the body did have a bunch of issues. But, I'd reckon around 100-130 hours should have had the issues fixed and the car painted. At least, I figured it looked like a $10-12k job to fix everything up and get that car painted.

I think that I would start doing things in writing so that you have a paper trail. You might want to write and inform them that you didn't think labor was $85/hr but $65/hr, which is what I thought too. Of course, they will dispute that and it might be a good idea to stop in the shop and see if the rate is posted. I don't remember it being posted anywhere.

Then you can see what happens. Unfortunately, you can be assured relationships will take a downturn from this point forward and it won't expidite you getting the car from the shop. However, $18k is hard to swallow for painting that car, that is for sure.

I don't know what I'm going to do with mine now. I'm scared of shops that is for sure, maybe I'll have to take on the prep work myself and get my neighbor to help paint it. Some who has done an RF, can you send me a blow-by-blow account of what to do for prep work? I think there is one out there somewhere.

Lynn,

Sorry to hear of your problem!

Before things get any uglier, and the guy finds out that you intend to litigate the matter, ask him to document ON PAPER, how many hours were spent on each part of the car. How many coats of primer, paint, clearcoat, how many hours of prep, etc. A photo of the $65/hr shop labor rate sign wouldn't hurt either! Are there others in the community, who have had work done by this guy? Ask them for copies of their bills, if there is a discrepancy in the labor rates. (maybe the guy thinks that you are loaded, and can afford it)The more ammo that you have when your day in court arrives, the better off you will be. There will be no surprises, that you aren't prepared for, when you go before a judge.
Ask the guy to be VERY specific! Tell him that you have to justify every little expense to the wife or she'll divorce you. It's a sure thing that when the $hit hits the fan, you two will be speaking through your attorneys, which will lead to greater expense that you don't need.

Best of luck! I hope that things work out in your favor!

Two things that I have learned in business from bad experiences:

ALWAYS have a bulletproof contract in writing, and NEVER take a personal check!


Bill

Lynn,

The shop that did my car, had it for over 6 months the car needed extensive bodywork, specially the rear area. The charge was $5500 (I know, it is insane!). After it was done, the owner told me he would never do one of these for less than $12000.

There were number of days/weeks that I visited the place when the car was there, and they had done nothing at all. So just because they had the car for so long it does not mean anything.

HERE IS AN IDEA,,, If you do decide to litigate, may be the members on this FORUM can send you copies of their (paint/body work) invoice for you to use as evidence of cost. If you take 10 or 20 of these to the court, and the range is from $5500 to $13000, that may have an effect on the ruling. Just an idea!!

What's particularly galling is that since this shop
(in theory) was working on Lynn's car during "slow" times
as fill in, you'd think they charge a reduced rate since
otherwise they'd be pushing brooms around. Unfortunately
most shops don't see it that way. They seem to think they're
doing you a favor by "storing" your car until they can get to it.

Ron....IMHO there are (4) different areas involved:

1. Sanding/Blocking...dirty, boring, tedious....
but skill level required is not high.
Can save a lot of money doing yourself.

2. Defect repair...again...dirty, not quite as boring,
but requires a little more skill. Still, within
the ability of most who have PATIENCE.
Plan on LOTS of time chasing pinholes in the gelcoat,
and getting the gaps even and straight.
Amount of work required can vary a lot from body to
body depending upon the vendor and your luck.

3. Painting...skill required...best left to someone
with experience...does NOT take a lot of hours
to actually apply the paint, so money well spent.

Note, the quality of the final paint is obviously
a function of the prep work, materials, and skill.
My experience has been that unless you need a show
winning paint job, it is not necessary to have a pro
do the prep work. You WILL miss a few things they won't
but you surely pay for that extra level of detail.

4. Wet sanding and/or buffing....same as paint..skill
required....best left to someone with experience...
really shouldn't take long if the paint was done right.
And if you want to see a grown man cry, sand or buff
through an area on a newly painted car.
Having a friend in the business is a huge advantage.
Networking with local car clubs can sometimes help.
Good luck

MikeD

LYNN: Here is the bad news: Unless whatever amount you feel you're getting hosed by falls within the limits of Small Claims Court, you should forget about litigating this matter. I can tell you from personal experience that state courts (but usually excepting Small Claims) have 1-2 year backlogs before they'll let you in the door. Most importantly, there are oodles of administrative hoops that have to be carefully jumped through or you'll get bounced without ever getting to the meat of the claim. Unless you're willing to devote SCORES of hours of your own time figuring all this out (and maybe not getting all of it right), you will need a lawyer. At $225 per hour ($350 per hour for in-court time), you will eat up more than you're trying to get out of paying to the shop well before you ever actually see a judge through the preparation of claims, responses to counterclaims, discovery, requests for documentation, interrogatories, depositions, sometimes mandatory mediation, etc. etc. Many lawyers won't even look at handling a straightforward litigation without a $10K retainer! And if you do actually get into court and LOSE (ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY! Regardless of the merits of your case, you are at the mercy of another human up on the bench who can screw up, get up on the wrong side of bed that day, or just not like the color of your tie!), you could be strapped with paying the winner's legal fees on top of your own. The sad truth about civil litigation in the U.S. today is that you are SOL (sh-- out of luck) unless you're looking at a six-figure claim. Now, if you can get the matter into Small Claims Court, here is another piece of advice: HIRE AN ATTORNEY! Again, this is based on personal experience. If you show up by yourself and the other side is represented by a lawyer, the odds are that you will get your lunch eaten. PM me if you want more info.

Lynn,
Sorry to hear of your plight. When you start talking to this guy and things start to break down. You might remind him that the lawyers are the only ones who will win. He might win, but he still has to pay his lawyer, and if he losses, he not only has to eat the loss, but will have to eat the lawyers fee also. So he can't win and you can't either. So why not negotiate. Follow the suggestions given by the others, but keep the fallback position of negotiating. You say 25%, he will probably say 75%, and you meet somewhere in the middle. Much better than losing 100%.
Bill

Lynn, Sorry I started mine right before Christmas and I spent at least 10 hours a week dong the body PREP. Thats no paint! 200 hours would not be out of the question even if the guy doing it was a pro and was twice as fast as I was.

I have had 3 discussions with hot rod type body/paint people and all three wanted at least 10 grand to get started. I fully expected to aproch twice that. Since I can't afford 20 thousand dollars to paint my car I did as much of the prep as I can. I will be having the paint guy over to look at it next week and then I'll know how much more I have to do.

He told me that if he had to ONLY lightly final sand, primerfiller, sand, primer, finish paint including stripe, near $4000. And thats a very low price out here in the peoples republic of calif.

Sorry for the bad news. How close is the car to being finished? I'd stop him, agree on a settelment, pay him, find someone else to paint the car and get it in writing, paint it and move on.

Based on a tip from Gordy, I went to the North Carolina Attorney General's Consumer Protection website where I found some interesting information that Gordy suggested might be found. In a cosumer tip document, I found the following:

You need to take your car into the shop for repairs, but do you know how to find a reputable mechanic and what
your rights are as a consumer?
<ul type="square"> [*] Ask friends and neighbors, particularly those who drive cars like yours, to recommend a good mechanic.
[*] Beware of any shop that asks for payment in advance and always ask about warranty terms before you agree to any repairs.
[*] Check to see that mechanics are ASE (National Institute for Automotive Excellence) certified and that a sign is posted explaining your rights under the North Carolina law.
[/list]
North Carolina’s Motor Vehicle Repair Act (G.S. 20-354) protects consumers when auto repairs cost more than $350. Here’s how the law works:
<ul type="square"> [*] The repair shop should give you a written estimate and ask you to sign an authorization for the repair. If the car is dropped off by a third party or at a time when the shop is closed, the estimate and authorization can be agreed to orally.
[*] When you authorize the repair, you have the right to request that you get back or be allowed to examine any of your car’s old parts.
[*] The repair shop must notify you of any storage charges you’ll owe if you don’t pick up the car once the repair is completed.
[*] The repair shop may not exceed the cost you authorized by more than ten percent without first getting your permission.
[*] If the problem is unknown, the repair shop must divulge the cost to diagnose the problem. Once they’ve diagnosed the problem, the shop must contact you with an estimate and to get authorization to do the work.
[*] The repair shop must provide you with a detailed invoice that itemizes charges for labor and parts and identifies all parts as new, used, or reconditioned.
[*] Keep in mind that repair shops have flexibility in marking up the charge for parts and that you must pay for authorized repairs even if they do not solve the problem.
[*] The Motor Vehicle Repair Act does not apply if your insurance company is paying for the repairs, or toagricultural equipment and vehicles weighing more than 26,000 pounds. [/list]

You may want to see if your state has similar legislation to protect consumers.

Regards,
Lynn

Thanks for the input and empathy guys! I was fully prepared for a bill of $10-12K because I knew the body had some issues that would run the bill up. I was not prepared for nearly double that. My major mistake was not having something in writing before the job was begun. Ironically, that may end up being the hot rod shop's major mistake as well. Since, they had no written estimate for me to authorize, depending on the exact wording of the Motor Vehicle Repair Act, it is possible that I could demand my car and drive it away without paying a cent. While I wouldn't do that, it is the way some state's laws are written. Hopefully, this will not come to litigation. I really think that on the strength of the consumer laws, we will be able to come to some sort of agreement. I went to visit them yesterday and they have already given some ground in that, the 200 hours, originally, did not include the time that I had already paid for. Yesterday, they said that the 200 hours was the total amount of work they had done. So, $3K had already been paid against that. Still a hell of a lot of money, but they are at least changing their position and in the RIGHT direction.

The only thing I would say about doing work yourself to keep costs down is, "Make sure your paint guy will still provide some sort of warranty on his work since it is going on top of your work and not his!" Many will NOT do this, understandably. If you are going to do any repair work, make sure the materials you use are compatible with the painter's materials and he signs off on their use. This was the main reason I didn't do more of the work. I wasn't sure who was going to do the work and by the time I did know, I was ready to have the car get done and done right (obviously, that went over like a fart in church.)

Lastly, do as I say, not as I do: No matter how nice of a guy someone seems, GET IT IN WRITING!

Lynn

Hey Lynn,

On the other side of all this, is the job complete and ready to bring home? And how awesome does it look /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif As sexy and exhilarating as these cars are when finally dressed, that alone will take away some of the sting your going through right now. Kinda like an expensive hooker /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Tim

Bradley's Bromide:
If computers get too powerful, we can organize
them into a committee -- that will do them in.

Tim,

Your right and I am kind of waiting to see what the overall car is going to look like; they have the front and rear clips painted but not the spider or doors. They have already screwed me out of racing stripes because they clear coated already and retro'ing stripes would cost me even more.

I told someone that this paint job ought to be able to win any show I might decide to enter . Another concession that I got from them is that they will do the interior within the price. This also tells me that they are jacking me; otherwise, they wouldn't offer to do that. Their part is pretty plain jane, except for one thing. Early on, I told them that I wanted the dash covered in Ultra Suede and they haven't backed off of that because I specifically asked about it. The firewall won't be vinyl or carpet. They have a material that is made for that sort of thing and it doesn't look bad. I already have the sound proofing and padding in and the seats are covered, so we are only talking about the carpet, bulkhead covering, a very small amount of headliner and the dash. I think I am going to do the door panels myself as I have some very specific ideas of what I want to do with them.

They were supposed to mount the door latch pins on steel plates. The Sabre doesn't have the extensions on the sides of the roll bar with the flat plates for this. I doubt that those will be put in. I'll probably have to add them in, which won't be too difficult, but since John Hester put side intrusion bars in my doors, I can't see having the door latches mounted in only fiberglass.

Bye the way, if anyone in North Carolina wants a copy of the Motor Vehicle Repair Act, just drop me an email and I will send you a copy. I went online and got a copy from the NC General Statutes.

Lynn

I was talking to my fiberglass/paint guy today, and we were talking about your delima. He told me that unless you were in California, The going rate is between $45 and $65 and hour. It only goes up if your talking a show quality finish which takes a lot of time and many coats of base and clear, then cutting the clear down to eliminate the ridges and then many more coats of clear. Otherwise when you polish your car, you windup cutting into the stripes (the color of your stripes will show up on your polishing cloth).
Make sure they are baking on the primer coats (I seem to remember 175 degrees) to find out if all the pin holes have been eliminated, otherwise you will get bubbles in the finish that have been known to travel around under the paint breaking down the bonding of the paint to the primer. The heat actually softens the primer so that the paint melds to it giving it the true bond. Otherwise it will flake and peel over time.
One other ting, If you can, try to get the job done with a fixed price for the work. Then if anything comes up the painter is obligated to tell you it will cost more and why.
Bill

Lynn

I've seen cars with stripes laid on TOP of the clearcoat.
So long as you don't mind the small ridge that creates,
I don't think it looks bad in the least.
Sure beats having to clearcoat the entire car again.

MikeD

to do your stripes, sand with 600 grit (entire car, then stripe and clear coat again.

I talked with the guy at the paint store who paints on the side and he showed me a picture of a 50's corvette that was taken down and repainted - extensive work. 1500 hours on prep and paint. It looked absolutely gorgeous in the pictures. Good luck.