windshield fit
- Thread starter swede30
- Start date
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Jim,
I had to do a LOT of work on the windscreen recess on my car to get the glass to lay in right and then still had some issues that I had to live with. (I bought two windscreens, just in case.) Glass is funny stuff: while pulling the corner down when gluing in place will likely never be an issue, stresses could exist in the "ice" that would allow it to crack the whole corner off when you hit the first jarring bump or as the windshield heats up in the morning sun. (Glass is an ice of silica for all intents and purposes and, as an aside, I saw a program recently where they showed some amazing properties of metallic ices as opposed to the more familiar metallic crystalline structures, that is, amazing strength.) Many windscreens today are stressed members of the body and windshield fabrication techniques allow for this. But also keep in mind that some uninitiated passenger may reach up and grab the corner of the door opening to pull him/her-self out of the seat before you can stop them :-(
You may very well have already done this, but you might want to look closely at the recess to see if you can determine why the windshield is sticking up. While the problem could be the shape of the glass, the most prevalent fittment issue is in the lower corners: there would appear to be two families of windscreen glass - Australian and English. The former seems to have less curvature in the lower corners, not in the uppers as you have described. So, my guess is that there is some irregularity in the recess channel. ½" showing is really not a lot and some careful, very judicious sanding may allow the corner to rest comfortably in place or, at least, with less protrusion. I would look for high spots in the recess floor that you can feel as the likely culprit(s).
Often overlooked is the need for a ¼" gap around the periphery of the windscreen. Make little ¼" chocks to go along the bottom edge of the windscreen to check this and, who knows, just doing this may help with your fittment issue as well.
Regards,
Lynn
I had to do a LOT of work on the windscreen recess on my car to get the glass to lay in right and then still had some issues that I had to live with. (I bought two windscreens, just in case.) Glass is funny stuff: while pulling the corner down when gluing in place will likely never be an issue, stresses could exist in the "ice" that would allow it to crack the whole corner off when you hit the first jarring bump or as the windshield heats up in the morning sun. (Glass is an ice of silica for all intents and purposes and, as an aside, I saw a program recently where they showed some amazing properties of metallic ices as opposed to the more familiar metallic crystalline structures, that is, amazing strength.) Many windscreens today are stressed members of the body and windshield fabrication techniques allow for this. But also keep in mind that some uninitiated passenger may reach up and grab the corner of the door opening to pull him/her-self out of the seat before you can stop them :-(
You may very well have already done this, but you might want to look closely at the recess to see if you can determine why the windshield is sticking up. While the problem could be the shape of the glass, the most prevalent fittment issue is in the lower corners: there would appear to be two families of windscreen glass - Australian and English. The former seems to have less curvature in the lower corners, not in the uppers as you have described. So, my guess is that there is some irregularity in the recess channel. ½" showing is really not a lot and some careful, very judicious sanding may allow the corner to rest comfortably in place or, at least, with less protrusion. I would look for high spots in the recess floor that you can feel as the likely culprit(s).
Often overlooked is the need for a ¼" gap around the periphery of the windscreen. Make little ¼" chocks to go along the bottom edge of the windscreen to check this and, who knows, just doing this may help with your fittment issue as well.
Regards,
Lynn
Hi Jim, very sorry to hear that. The one thing comes to mind is if you flex it down a half inch, then someone gets in or out and pulls down on the corner of the roof, you already used up some of your flex "cushion" before it may crack the windshield.Let us know what path or cure you have, as more of us may be in the same boat. Take care , Dan /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Ron Earp
Admin
Jim,
Did you fit the spider with the windshield in place? As I recall, that was a big deal when Hershal and I fit mine (big deal as in it must be there). Once it it is in there while fitting it makes alignment of the spider and body much easier as I recall. Lynn's suggestion might go a long way to fitting it though if everything else is lined up now.
Ron
Did you fit the spider with the windshield in place? As I recall, that was a big deal when Hershal and I fit mine (big deal as in it must be there). Once it it is in there while fitting it makes alignment of the spider and body much easier as I recall. Lynn's suggestion might go a long way to fitting it though if everything else is lined up now.
Ron
To anyone about to start the fitting and alignment of body panels.
Always just lay the windscreen in place on odd pieces of thin foam and tag with masking tape. Then start adjusting. That way you will retain the correct curvature and help in upper door adjustment as you have a heavier and more rigid spider to work against.
Regards,
Graham @ GTA.
Always just lay the windscreen in place on odd pieces of thin foam and tag with masking tape. Then start adjusting. That way you will retain the correct curvature and help in upper door adjustment as you have a heavier and more rigid spider to work against.
Regards,
Graham @ GTA.
This is the reason why we really need a better manual when building these cars. From Hershals recent post that its normal to route out the area from the coolant tank to this . These things would help new and current builders avoid many headaches and lots of wasted time trying to figure out if they are doing something wrong. I think it was previously posted about having a area on the forum with additional info the manual does not have in it , and wrong info in the manual .This would help all the RF builders and some would transfer also to other like cars. Maybe sift the best stuff out off the RF support area and other things people could add. That or maybe we could hook some wiring into Hershals brain and into a USB port on the server. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Tim Kay
Lifetime Supporter
Let me see if I understand what you guys are suggesting. You have raised a question in my mind.
I have removed my spyder from the vehicle and the windscreen from the spyder for paint.
So, do I have the windscreen installed before putting the spyder back on the car or visa-vesa /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I have removed my spyder from the vehicle and the windscreen from the spyder for paint.
So, do I have the windscreen installed before putting the spyder back on the car or visa-vesa /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Lynn Larsen
Lynn Larsen
Tim,
Not necessarily installed, but definitely in place as you fit the spyder. I can tell you from personal experience that a slight change in the position of the front edge of the spyder can make a helluva difference in where, especially, the top edge of the windscreen recess is located. The Sabre didn't have the square, flat lip in front of the lower windscreen surround to help maintain its shape. My spyder got streched out a maximum of 1/2" and the result was that upper recess/roof lip was nearly an inch low. Some steel reinforcing and a lot of faith that glass will take compressive forces a lot better than shear or bending forces got things to come together, but I am doubly glad I bought two pieces of glass just-in-case the worst happens. I wish someone had told me that I should position the spyder with the glass in place!
Regards,
Lynn
Not necessarily installed, but definitely in place as you fit the spyder. I can tell you from personal experience that a slight change in the position of the front edge of the spyder can make a helluva difference in where, especially, the top edge of the windscreen recess is located. The Sabre didn't have the square, flat lip in front of the lower windscreen surround to help maintain its shape. My spyder got streched out a maximum of 1/2" and the result was that upper recess/roof lip was nearly an inch low. Some steel reinforcing and a lot of faith that glass will take compressive forces a lot better than shear or bending forces got things to come together, but I am doubly glad I bought two pieces of glass just-in-case the worst happens. I wish someone had told me that I should position the spyder with the glass in place!
Regards,
Lynn
Bless you all!!!!!!!
What an important piece of information, and arriving at just the correct point in time. I don't want to think about having gone through the whole fit and body work thing and then find that the windshield is off.
During my build I have spent a lot of time trying to look ahead for problems areas before I run into them and have to rework something but I've not always spotted the pitfalls. I think a collection of this type of information would be a great supplament to any build manual. Yes the expansion tank was a good example but look at the exact measuring point for the spyder foot or the use of star washers under the bolts when positioning the spyder to get a better grip on the powdercoat and prevent movement. (Hershal just told me about that one. Thanks Hershal.)
This site and the people on it have such a wealth of information we should some how capture it in an organized manner. Just my two cents but thanks for the windshield tip. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Peter
What an important piece of information, and arriving at just the correct point in time. I don't want to think about having gone through the whole fit and body work thing and then find that the windshield is off.
During my build I have spent a lot of time trying to look ahead for problems areas before I run into them and have to rework something but I've not always spotted the pitfalls. I think a collection of this type of information would be a great supplament to any build manual. Yes the expansion tank was a good example but look at the exact measuring point for the spyder foot or the use of star washers under the bolts when positioning the spyder to get a better grip on the powdercoat and prevent movement. (Hershal just told me about that one. Thanks Hershal.)
This site and the people on it have such a wealth of information we should some how capture it in an organized manner. Just my two cents but thanks for the windshield tip. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Peter
Although I'm working on another area right now, on my car, I placed the windshield on the spider last night. I have about a 3mm gap at the upper l/h corner under the windshield. and then in the center about 5 mm at the top and 3mm at the bottom. If i place a wood stick in the car and "prop" up the center of the spider I can close the top center gap, also this evens up the "lip" to the roof just above and behind the windshield and makes it look good. I guess this is the way I should install it. There is not much room to shim the glass around in the opening , as it is very tight in different corners also.
Ditto's Peter ,,, besides helping us finish our cars , the guys behind us could really use these pointers that can cut gobs of time and frustration off their build. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Ditto's Peter ,,, besides helping us finish our cars , the guys behind us could really use these pointers that can cut gobs of time and frustration off their build. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
As long as we are on the subject of windscreens, Can someone explain how the glass is actually installed into the spider. The manual only says to have a qualified windscreen fitter install the glass. With that said, it should still be known to the builder what allowances have to be made to make the glass fit into the opening to prevent problems for the glass installer. RF has supplied the rubber that fits around the glass and somehow holds the glass to the spider. How does this connection actually take place? Is the rubber glued on the windscreen then glued and press fit into the opening in the spider? Another question would be...after the glass is sitting in the spider, what size gap is necessary between the glass and the spider to make the rubber do its job?
Robert Logan
Defunct Manufactuer - Old RF Company
Jim, Dan et all,
We have our glass fitted by the company that supply the windschields. There are two rubbers supplied, a "U" shaped one that is used to finish the inside of the fiber glass so that the driver / passenger does not see the edge of the screen frame from their seats. The second extrusion is either a new "J" section or the older "H" section. The older supplied "H" section is cut down to look like the newer "J" section. They are fitted so that the top of the "J" is outer most and the hook of the "J" is on the inside of the the screen. We normally have the extrusion join at the bottom of the screen in the middle for the outside "J" section and the join of the "U" extrusion at the top . We find that this hides the joins the best. Regarding the fit, the bottom left does have a slight lift but this is covered / evened with the fitters and please look at any of the cars we have on our web site. They all have our screens fitted.
The discussion regarding distorsion of the screen frame when the scuttle is pushed back will go on but it is my opinion that there is little if any distorsion when this is done. The cross section of the side rails to far to substansial to allow distorsion.
Regarding the quality of the manual and what is included and what is not included, this was MY decission or as they say "I take full responsibility" for its content. I could have included a lot more but you always have to say "stop" some times. There will always be some who want more and this I accept and I urge those people to contact RF in Australia and my staff will help you. There is a very fine line between to little and too much information and in my opinion loosing intelectual property. I am very happy to pass on to people all the information they request from me. We change the way we do things from time to time because I expect my staff to constantly strive for a better way to do EVERYTHING. I have always given freely of all our information to all our owners and will continue to do so but I much prefer to do this privately over the phone or with e-mails.
The manual was completed (or maybe not) some years ago at an enormous expence both in time and physical cost. I do plan to visit it again soon but at the moment I have ALL my time and even more monies in South Africa making sure that we produce the right quality product at the right price. I can easily understand why very few other manufacturers supply very little as regards a manual and why some manufacturers do not supply any manuals at all or even supply finished cars.
I believe our manual is very good but I also believe it could be better but it is down the pecking order and our back up service of responding to questions is second to none and this in my opinion covers for any shortfalling percieved or otherwise of our manual.
We currently have some SIX cars under construction in Australia and TWELVE under construction in South Africa. This gives us a constant source to explain EXACTLT what you need as we are more than likely doing that same thing on one of our cars in Australia.
As a final point I think the idea of help area on the forum is great. I worry about the ability of doing one jod on car type A being able to be transfered the car type B and visa versa.
Please contact me or my staff if you have any problems.
Best wishes,
Robert
We have our glass fitted by the company that supply the windschields. There are two rubbers supplied, a "U" shaped one that is used to finish the inside of the fiber glass so that the driver / passenger does not see the edge of the screen frame from their seats. The second extrusion is either a new "J" section or the older "H" section. The older supplied "H" section is cut down to look like the newer "J" section. They are fitted so that the top of the "J" is outer most and the hook of the "J" is on the inside of the the screen. We normally have the extrusion join at the bottom of the screen in the middle for the outside "J" section and the join of the "U" extrusion at the top . We find that this hides the joins the best. Regarding the fit, the bottom left does have a slight lift but this is covered / evened with the fitters and please look at any of the cars we have on our web site. They all have our screens fitted.
The discussion regarding distorsion of the screen frame when the scuttle is pushed back will go on but it is my opinion that there is little if any distorsion when this is done. The cross section of the side rails to far to substansial to allow distorsion.
Regarding the quality of the manual and what is included and what is not included, this was MY decission or as they say "I take full responsibility" for its content. I could have included a lot more but you always have to say "stop" some times. There will always be some who want more and this I accept and I urge those people to contact RF in Australia and my staff will help you. There is a very fine line between to little and too much information and in my opinion loosing intelectual property. I am very happy to pass on to people all the information they request from me. We change the way we do things from time to time because I expect my staff to constantly strive for a better way to do EVERYTHING. I have always given freely of all our information to all our owners and will continue to do so but I much prefer to do this privately over the phone or with e-mails.
The manual was completed (or maybe not) some years ago at an enormous expence both in time and physical cost. I do plan to visit it again soon but at the moment I have ALL my time and even more monies in South Africa making sure that we produce the right quality product at the right price. I can easily understand why very few other manufacturers supply very little as regards a manual and why some manufacturers do not supply any manuals at all or even supply finished cars.
I believe our manual is very good but I also believe it could be better but it is down the pecking order and our back up service of responding to questions is second to none and this in my opinion covers for any shortfalling percieved or otherwise of our manual.
We currently have some SIX cars under construction in Australia and TWELVE under construction in South Africa. This gives us a constant source to explain EXACTLT what you need as we are more than likely doing that same thing on one of our cars in Australia.
As a final point I think the idea of help area on the forum is great. I worry about the ability of doing one jod on car type A being able to be transfered the car type B and visa versa.
Please contact me or my staff if you have any problems.
Best wishes,
Robert
Howard Jones
Supporter
Fitting the body pieces and, doors, and glass must be done as a whole. What I mean by that is you must keep working all the fit points until you arrive at a point where you have the least complicated finish work left.
The door fit and front glass fit are the most important in that they have the most compound curves and least forgiving fit requirements. Then comes the front and back clip and lastly the sills.
The idea is to get the hardest fitpoints to change, either by adding fiberglass or grinding away fiberglass, done as close as possible and then move on to the easier pieces. This process may take several cycles but each time everthing will get closer to "best raw fit"
Work to a overall best fit before you begin grinding anything or putting on new material.
The front glass needs a mim of 1/8" and would be best at 1/4" gap all the way around the glass edge. I used a glass adhesive that is made for fiberglass cars to put mine in and then carefully removed most of the adhesive from the gap once the glass was in place. After the glass set up (24 hours) I filled the gap with black RTV. This is to prevent UV light from getting to the adhesive.
Be very careful with automotive glass adhesive. It is very hard to get off paint, hands, everthing else.
Buy the correct solvent when you buy the adhesive.
The body is the bitch part. But once you are done you will forever have pride in you car. AND you will never want to do another body again. (said with a little sarcasim)
Lastly the body fit took me the last 6 months of my build. I would do this part first if I did another car by the way but I think I did it right and I learned a lot. If you have questions about this feel free to drop me a email or just post them here.
The door fit and front glass fit are the most important in that they have the most compound curves and least forgiving fit requirements. Then comes the front and back clip and lastly the sills.
The idea is to get the hardest fitpoints to change, either by adding fiberglass or grinding away fiberglass, done as close as possible and then move on to the easier pieces. This process may take several cycles but each time everthing will get closer to "best raw fit"
Work to a overall best fit before you begin grinding anything or putting on new material.
The front glass needs a mim of 1/8" and would be best at 1/4" gap all the way around the glass edge. I used a glass adhesive that is made for fiberglass cars to put mine in and then carefully removed most of the adhesive from the gap once the glass was in place. After the glass set up (24 hours) I filled the gap with black RTV. This is to prevent UV light from getting to the adhesive.
Be very careful with automotive glass adhesive. It is very hard to get off paint, hands, everthing else.
Buy the correct solvent when you buy the adhesive.
The body is the bitch part. But once you are done you will forever have pride in you car. AND you will never want to do another body again. (said with a little sarcasim)
Lastly the body fit took me the last 6 months of my build. I would do this part first if I did another car by the way but I think I did it right and I learned a lot. If you have questions about this feel free to drop me a email or just post them here.
Ok, I have now cut the the rubber that Robert describes. I have a 1/4" gap all the way around my w/s. I am not sure what the next step should be. This is what I have tried with no success... This is a dry fit, no adhesive.
First:
I set the w/s in place and tried to apply the rubber extrusion. I started at the bottom center and worked out. I was able to get around the first turn (lower left) with no problem. Up the pillar with no problem. Then at the upper corner is where the whole process gets ugly. I cannot get it to make the turn. The rubber want to pop out or turn up or sometimes both.
Second:
I tried to apply the rubber extrusion directly to the w/s out of the car. This was not even close to being successful.
It seems from some of the reading I have done that the w/s is supposed to be set in adhesive and let dry, and apply the rubber later. I do not see how this would work.
Can someone describe what I'm doing wrong?
First:
I set the w/s in place and tried to apply the rubber extrusion. I started at the bottom center and worked out. I was able to get around the first turn (lower left) with no problem. Up the pillar with no problem. Then at the upper corner is where the whole process gets ugly. I cannot get it to make the turn. The rubber want to pop out or turn up or sometimes both.
Second:
I tried to apply the rubber extrusion directly to the w/s out of the car. This was not even close to being successful.
It seems from some of the reading I have done that the w/s is supposed to be set in adhesive and let dry, and apply the rubber later. I do not see how this would work.
Can someone describe what I'm doing wrong?
Ron Earp
Admin
Dan,
I have been told by a couple of people to forget trying to fit the windsheild yourself, regardless of kit. Just call a glass place, tell them you need one installed, and have it done right for $100 for a squeak free fit. I think you'd just want it in the car for fitting, but don't want it installed until it is painted.
Ron
I have been told by a couple of people to forget trying to fit the windsheild yourself, regardless of kit. Just call a glass place, tell them you need one installed, and have it done right for $100 for a squeak free fit. I think you'd just want it in the car for fitting, but don't want it installed until it is painted.
Ron
Ron you need to have faith in skills of people on the forum.If you look on here forum members have assembled there own gearboxes, engines, paint, bodywork, upholstery, chassis, and then after that can drive the crap out of the car they have built.They have designed new parts, redone huge mistakes of previous owners and so called experts before them , and continue to learn new techniques and further the breed in development. Why lay down and automatically hand the glass installers sealant gun over .Sometimes all one needs is more data to learn and do the job right on their own. I am still a student ,always learning but have more pride in my ride if I can do it myself, and i bet I don't have half the expertise many members have.
Howard Jones
Supporter
Ron is correct. The LAST thing to go onto the car is the windshield. Once you have the body dead on done, painted the works and ready to drive, then do one last trial fit and then duct tap it into place and carefully drive it down to the glass installer you have talked to a half dozen times and can't wait to have a look at a GT40. Better yet have him over for the install and have the wife make you both lunch followed with a couple of beers(after the work is done). Find some one who is interested in your project and will take his time. I did 95% of my build but I let some one who is GOOD at glass do mine. Went in nice and clean with no mess and looked great first time. Quite a relief really. I didn't want to pratice my 1st windshield installation on my MY GT40.
Ron Earp
Admin
Hey Dan,
I'm not getting down on people's skills, no way. I know there are lots here who do the thing themselves entirely and are proud of that fact, but you are right I don't want to lose sight of that.
Maybe I should have simply stated that while I think I could do the job too, and I think most people here can do it also, I feel the advice given me and from my own experiences with it the $100 is well worth it to me. I put the glass in my JH, but it didn't have to look fantastic and I have to say, it doesn't! I'm not so good at it, although I got it done. Nice thing about race cars, some things like goop to seal a bad fit doesn't matter so much, particularily when covered with trim pieces. I think I'd be bad at doing a 40, but I could get her done.
So, please accept my apologies for those that thought I was simply advising them to cease and desist, I was simply based that on some advice and my own not-so-good experiences.
Ron
I'm not getting down on people's skills, no way. I know there are lots here who do the thing themselves entirely and are proud of that fact, but you are right I don't want to lose sight of that.
Maybe I should have simply stated that while I think I could do the job too, and I think most people here can do it also, I feel the advice given me and from my own experiences with it the $100 is well worth it to me. I put the glass in my JH, but it didn't have to look fantastic and I have to say, it doesn't! I'm not so good at it, although I got it done. Nice thing about race cars, some things like goop to seal a bad fit doesn't matter so much, particularily when covered with trim pieces. I think I'd be bad at doing a 40, but I could get her done.
So, please accept my apologies for those that thought I was simply advising them to cease and desist, I was simply based that on some advice and my own not-so-good experiences.
Ron
Guys,
I'm not trying to permanently install my w/s now, I'm just trying to make sure it is going to fit when the time comes. I do not want to paint the car and find out that I have a problem. I never gave the w/s fitment a thought when I was working on the body.. Jim's question made me nervous, so I figured I'd better check. I also want to understand the process from beginning to end so I can determine if I can do it myself or start looking for the right person as Howard suggested. I think part of the trouble I was having was because I did not do such a great job cutting the rubber as Robert suggested. It came out uneven. Another thing I was doing wrong was pulling the rubber to tight around the corners. Once I found the right technique it stopped rolling up and looked nice and smooth.
Anyway, if someone can describe the correct method of this exercise I would be grateful!
I'm not trying to permanently install my w/s now, I'm just trying to make sure it is going to fit when the time comes. I do not want to paint the car and find out that I have a problem. I never gave the w/s fitment a thought when I was working on the body.. Jim's question made me nervous, so I figured I'd better check. I also want to understand the process from beginning to end so I can determine if I can do it myself or start looking for the right person as Howard suggested. I think part of the trouble I was having was because I did not do such a great job cutting the rubber as Robert suggested. It came out uneven. Another thing I was doing wrong was pulling the rubber to tight around the corners. Once I found the right technique it stopped rolling up and looked nice and smooth.
Anyway, if someone can describe the correct method of this exercise I would be grateful!
