EFI Fuel Pumps - Choice ?
- Thread starter JIMMYMAC
- Start date
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Hi James -
I'm not too sure what pumps the original 40s used or looked like, but I do not know of any injected originals. If there were some, I guess they would have used Lucas type mechanical type injection and hence, possibly, a mechanically driven pump - but I AM GUESSING!
However - what you actually use is really determind by the anticipated maximum power output. I generally use Bosch pumps as they have been the most reliable in my opinion. A pump flowing 225L / hour at about 3 bar (45psi) should be good for about 500bhp, much more than that and you ought to think about running a pair of pumps in parallel.
Think also about swirlpot arangement to keepa steady feed to the HP pump - I would recommend a Carter pump - low pressure - good flow rate and again, reliable.
I know a lot of 40s use the 'Red-Top' type facet pumps, which I'm sure are ok for carb motors (doubled for high power motors) but we have found them to be less than effective for injection setups - with variable flowrates and very dodgy reliability....
Hope this is helpful - what EFI or injector type are you fitting? - keep us posted on how you proceed - your motor looked very special as I recall from previous pics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I'm not too sure what pumps the original 40s used or looked like, but I do not know of any injected originals. If there were some, I guess they would have used Lucas type mechanical type injection and hence, possibly, a mechanically driven pump - but I AM GUESSING!
However - what you actually use is really determind by the anticipated maximum power output. I generally use Bosch pumps as they have been the most reliable in my opinion. A pump flowing 225L / hour at about 3 bar (45psi) should be good for about 500bhp, much more than that and you ought to think about running a pair of pumps in parallel.
Think also about swirlpot arangement to keepa steady feed to the HP pump - I would recommend a Carter pump - low pressure - good flow rate and again, reliable.
I know a lot of 40s use the 'Red-Top' type facet pumps, which I'm sure are ok for carb motors (doubled for high power motors) but we have found them to be less than effective for injection setups - with variable flowrates and very dodgy reliability....
Hope this is helpful - what EFI or injector type are you fitting? - keep us posted on how you proceed - your motor looked very special as I recall from previous pics. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Jimmy,
I started out with 2 A-1000's and destroyed them within 4000 miles due to fuel starvation on braking with under 1/2 tank of fuel. They don't care much for fuel starvation, even if only for a few seconds. It adds up.....
I've since changed to 2 Walbro pumps, one for each tank, feeding a 1 gallon swirlpot with a Pollak valve returning the overflow of fuel to the correct tank. A single A-1000 takes its feed from from the swirlpot, feeds the efi, and returns to the swirlpot. I've put 11,000 miles on the car since with no problems.
See Walbro pumps at
Walbro pumps
Dave
I started out with 2 A-1000's and destroyed them within 4000 miles due to fuel starvation on braking with under 1/2 tank of fuel. They don't care much for fuel starvation, even if only for a few seconds. It adds up.....
I've since changed to 2 Walbro pumps, one for each tank, feeding a 1 gallon swirlpot with a Pollak valve returning the overflow of fuel to the correct tank. A single A-1000 takes its feed from from the swirlpot, feeds the efi, and returns to the swirlpot. I've put 11,000 miles on the car since with no problems.
See Walbro pumps at
Walbro pumps
Dave
Dave,
Do you have any photos of the tank? I have a couple of SX Performance EFI pumps and am about to start thinking of how to do it, and seems like the swirl pot is about the only way to go with the long skinny tanks. My only concern is the Pollak vales, just don't like the plastic aspect of it, and have yet to find a brass version (I think mentioned somewhere on the GT40s list but can't locate it).
I had couple ideas, but probabaly not too good since no swirl pot in either but any EFI feedback would be most helpful. I really don't want a transfer switch, but might have to...
Here they are-
1. Run the two EFI pumps each switched left/right tank, each with a regulator and bypass back to correct tank, then a check valve _after_ each regulator. Then match fuel pressure between the two sides.
2. Split the Rails of the injectors and run each side (4 cyls) off of a single tank, regulator and pump. Both pumps on at all times.
Both are bad for different reasons, hard to match regulators, one side may suck air, etc.
One of the best suggestions that I did hear was only use one fuel tank and most problems are solved... but I don't think 10 gals will cut it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I am going to use the TWM Setup w/50mm bodies and Haltech F10X Fuel controller. The TWM part is a nice piece for those that are looking.
Sandy
Do you have any photos of the tank? I have a couple of SX Performance EFI pumps and am about to start thinking of how to do it, and seems like the swirl pot is about the only way to go with the long skinny tanks. My only concern is the Pollak vales, just don't like the plastic aspect of it, and have yet to find a brass version (I think mentioned somewhere on the GT40s list but can't locate it).
I had couple ideas, but probabaly not too good since no swirl pot in either but any EFI feedback would be most helpful. I really don't want a transfer switch, but might have to...
Here they are-
1. Run the two EFI pumps each switched left/right tank, each with a regulator and bypass back to correct tank, then a check valve _after_ each regulator. Then match fuel pressure between the two sides.
2. Split the Rails of the injectors and run each side (4 cyls) off of a single tank, regulator and pump. Both pumps on at all times.
Both are bad for different reasons, hard to match regulators, one side may suck air, etc.
One of the best suggestions that I did hear was only use one fuel tank and most problems are solved... but I don't think 10 gals will cut it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I am going to use the TWM Setup w/50mm bodies and Haltech F10X Fuel controller. The TWM part is a nice piece for those that are looking.
Sandy
Ian Anderson
Lifetime Supporter
Thank goodness I'm not the only one battling with fuel pump choice!
I bought the Pollack valve and it looks great but as said it's plastic.
The only other change over system I could find was off a Jaguar - a load more expensive and I heard it relies on a solenoid being active and hence is a potential heat source. (Not sure if it's metal)
So I was looking at
Tanks to Pollack valve
Pollack valve to Red Top
Red Top through Chromed Filter (see Glass bowl thread)
Filter to Swirl pot (Small at 1 - 1.5litres but this will only drop in level under serious braking and then the engine should not be drinking too fast)
Swirl pot through either Bosch or Walbro
Boshc / Walbro to fuel rail at 4 bar
Return feed from fuel rail to Swirl pot
Return fron swirl pot to Return on Pollack valve
Pollack valve to return on the tank from which fuel is drawn.
This seems to be, in my way of thinking) the minimum to have tank choice, avoid engine dying on braking etc.
But what fuel pumps are best and from what source as this is starting to look expensive!
Ian
I bought the Pollack valve and it looks great but as said it's plastic.
The only other change over system I could find was off a Jaguar - a load more expensive and I heard it relies on a solenoid being active and hence is a potential heat source. (Not sure if it's metal)
So I was looking at
Tanks to Pollack valve
Pollack valve to Red Top
Red Top through Chromed Filter (see Glass bowl thread)
Filter to Swirl pot (Small at 1 - 1.5litres but this will only drop in level under serious braking and then the engine should not be drinking too fast)
Swirl pot through either Bosch or Walbro
Boshc / Walbro to fuel rail at 4 bar
Return feed from fuel rail to Swirl pot
Return fron swirl pot to Return on Pollack valve
Pollack valve to return on the tank from which fuel is drawn.
This seems to be, in my way of thinking) the minimum to have tank choice, avoid engine dying on braking etc.
But what fuel pumps are best and from what source as this is starting to look expensive!
Ian
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Link to the Carter Pump I mentioned in earlier posting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Out of interest - Roy's car has only one tank - the passenger side. It was fabricated with injection in mind and was also made some 3-4" wider as his water pipes to not pass between tank and chassis, they pass down centre between the seats. This in turn means the single tank is some 4"x7"x40" ish' larger - hence the capacity is not a problem. Although his car is generally used off road on circuits now anyway.
Out of interest - Roy's car has only one tank - the passenger side. It was fabricated with injection in mind and was also made some 3-4" wider as his water pipes to not pass between tank and chassis, they pass down centre between the seats. This in turn means the single tank is some 4"x7"x40" ish' larger - hence the capacity is not a problem. Although his car is generally used off road on circuits now anyway.
You guys may want to consider using one low flow/pressure pump such as the Carter to a swirl pot and then one high pressure pump. I am using the Mallory 5110FI series. I plan to connect the two tanks with a one way valve toward the low pressure pump and the return line from the swirl pot overflow to the non pumped tank.
Bill
Bill
Jimmy,
I struggled with the fuel pump question for several months before settling on two Carter LP pumps feeding the Pollack 6 way valve and the valve feeding the FI surge tank. Then using a EFI pump to the fuel rails. I for one have no problem with the plastic body of the Pollack valve. The valve sits on the LP side of the system and is rated at 70 PSI, way more than it will ever see in this setup.
I think that we as a group often over engineer our solutions to a given problem, partly because it's fun and partly because if a 5 pound sledg will work, a 10 pound will work better. Now the disclamer, since the motor is not even in my car as yet and the pumps have only been run on the bench, I might be completely wrong but I think my point is valid.
Peter
I struggled with the fuel pump question for several months before settling on two Carter LP pumps feeding the Pollack 6 way valve and the valve feeding the FI surge tank. Then using a EFI pump to the fuel rails. I for one have no problem with the plastic body of the Pollack valve. The valve sits on the LP side of the system and is rated at 70 PSI, way more than it will ever see in this setup.
I think that we as a group often over engineer our solutions to a given problem, partly because it's fun and partly because if a 5 pound sledg will work, a 10 pound will work better. Now the disclamer, since the motor is not even in my car as yet and the pumps have only been run on the bench, I might be completely wrong but I think my point is valid.
Peter
Made my own tanks.
Baffled & foam.
Each tank has a walbro efi pump in tank for Ford Falcons 4lt.
Both feeding a surge tank.
The surge has a 500 hp walbro.
The 2 lift pumps will outrun the surge tank ,so the surge has a spill of back to the main tanks via a restrictor.
Each lift pump has an inline check valve so if one bundys off the other will not fill the other tank through the dead pump.
The engine returns back to the surge tank.
No valves no switchs no 10 pound sledge hammer.
The main tanks are linked via a pipe .3/4
All with minimal plumbing. Less hose makes for more reliable.
All the pumps run constantly.
It also allows me to run one sender & a fuel pressure gauge where the r/h fuel gauge was.
Jim
Baffled & foam.
Each tank has a walbro efi pump in tank for Ford Falcons 4lt.
Both feeding a surge tank.
The surge has a 500 hp walbro.
The 2 lift pumps will outrun the surge tank ,so the surge has a spill of back to the main tanks via a restrictor.
Each lift pump has an inline check valve so if one bundys off the other will not fill the other tank through the dead pump.
The engine returns back to the surge tank.
No valves no switchs no 10 pound sledge hammer.
The main tanks are linked via a pipe .3/4
All with minimal plumbing. Less hose makes for more reliable.
All the pumps run constantly.
It also allows me to run one sender & a fuel pressure gauge where the r/h fuel gauge was.
Jim
JimmyMac
Lifetime Supporter
Cheers Guys,
Food for thought indeed.
I also have the Aeromotive pump controller and will be using Motec management systems and did think about the swirl pot and made a nice one.
Paul,
Here's a picture of the manifold for you.
I have not decided which injectors to go with but they will be Lucas specifcation and geometry as they have to fit this agglomoration of different parts, but probably Kinsler as I like the people there.
I built this thing to give me the impression of the old Weber set up without the hitches.
Jenvey throttle bodies
Kinsler fuel rails
Weber Horns
Plus all my workshop sticking plasters to keep it together.
I appreciate all this help
Food for thought indeed.
I also have the Aeromotive pump controller and will be using Motec management systems and did think about the swirl pot and made a nice one.
Paul,
Here's a picture of the manifold for you.
I have not decided which injectors to go with but they will be Lucas specifcation and geometry as they have to fit this agglomoration of different parts, but probably Kinsler as I like the people there.
I built this thing to give me the impression of the old Weber set up without the hitches.
Jenvey throttle bodies
Kinsler fuel rails
Weber Horns
Plus all my workshop sticking plasters to keep it together.
I appreciate all this help
Attachments
Sandy,
Here's a couple of pictures of my setup. The swirlpot is attached to the "battery" cover that fits over the unused space on the left rocker of the car behind the fuel tank.
The Aeromotive pump is mounted on rubber absorbers attached to the topside of the cover.
The Walbro pumps are both on the right side of the car mounted on rubber absorbers attached to the battery cover.
I'm using a Haltech E6K EFI computer. The two two switches on the dash for the left and right pumps are fully functional. They serve to run the correct pump and return fuel to the correct tank. The Pollak valve is also located in the left side compartment along side the swirl pot. I only use the 3/8" ports on it to return overflow fuel from the swirl pot to the fuel tank. A 6AN hose with standard hose clamps works great on the plastic fittings. No problems with the valve to date. I also use the set of contacts in the Pollak to turn on a low intensity LED mounted right above the fuel pump switches. When it lights, it is positive feedback that the Pollak valve has switched to the correct tank. The switches are electrically interlocked so only one pump can run at a time even if both switchs are flipped on. You can look at the schematic full screen by going to the link below for more pictures.
A few more pictures "HERE"
Here's a couple of pictures of my setup. The swirlpot is attached to the "battery" cover that fits over the unused space on the left rocker of the car behind the fuel tank.
The Aeromotive pump is mounted on rubber absorbers attached to the topside of the cover.
The Walbro pumps are both on the right side of the car mounted on rubber absorbers attached to the battery cover.
I'm using a Haltech E6K EFI computer. The two two switches on the dash for the left and right pumps are fully functional. They serve to run the correct pump and return fuel to the correct tank. The Pollak valve is also located in the left side compartment along side the swirl pot. I only use the 3/8" ports on it to return overflow fuel from the swirl pot to the fuel tank. A 6AN hose with standard hose clamps works great on the plastic fittings. No problems with the valve to date. I also use the set of contacts in the Pollak to turn on a low intensity LED mounted right above the fuel pump switches. When it lights, it is positive feedback that the Pollak valve has switched to the correct tank. The switches are electrically interlocked so only one pump can run at a time even if both switchs are flipped on. You can look at the schematic full screen by going to the link below for more pictures.
A few more pictures "HERE"
Dave, thanks for the photos!
Give me some good ideas, I didn't think of the swirl pot in the battery box. I'll have to see the RCR Chassis as I see one open slot for sure, but was thinking of using that for tucking in a dry sump tank. I think the otherside may also be free so I think I'll do something similar. Nice and clean what you did.
Have you fired up the Haltech yet? It looks easy to tune, but will have to see...
Sandy
Give me some good ideas, I didn't think of the swirl pot in the battery box. I'll have to see the RCR Chassis as I see one open slot for sure, but was thinking of using that for tucking in a dry sump tank. I think the otherside may also be free so I think I'll do something similar. Nice and clean what you did.
Have you fired up the Haltech yet? It looks easy to tune, but will have to see...
Sandy
Paul Thompson 'Hooligan'
Admin
Looking good there Jim! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Which Motec system are going to use? and what size Jenvey's are you running? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Which Motec system are going to use? and what size Jenvey's are you running? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sandy,
I had the Haltech maps set up on a dyno 2 years before the car was on the road. I've put about 15K miles on it since it hit the road. No problems other than getting water in the TPS while washing the engine. It didn't like that at all...
I would offer that it is very difficult to set up or play with maps at anything over 1/4 or 1/3 throttle, even on a hill using the brakes.
Dave
I had the Haltech maps set up on a dyno 2 years before the car was on the road. I've put about 15K miles on it since it hit the road. No problems other than getting water in the TPS while washing the engine. It didn't like that at all...
I would offer that it is very difficult to set up or play with maps at anything over 1/4 or 1/3 throttle, even on a hill using the brakes.
Dave
Thanks Dave,
I would expect that I'll be getting the car on the rollers for the EFI tuning. I read the Haltech docs, and it does look pretty easy to tune, but I expected that driving up a hill or powerbreaking was not really an option LOL
It will start off with a simple (But effective) 4bbl, but I'm sure the first thing after it gets rolling will be the TWM EFI. Looks crazy good.
The other curious question is where did you stuff the MAT sensor? I'm not sure if needed to be directly in the airflow, but while drooling over the manifold I was looking for a simple place that makes sense, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to hack one of the throttle bodies or air horns. I'll be making a backfire shield above the throttle bodies so might have a place for it there.
Again, thanks for the tips. As I get a bit closer I'll ask some of the Haltech setup questions that the doc's leave a bit fuzzy.
Sandy
I would expect that I'll be getting the car on the rollers for the EFI tuning. I read the Haltech docs, and it does look pretty easy to tune, but I expected that driving up a hill or powerbreaking was not really an option LOL
It will start off with a simple (But effective) 4bbl, but I'm sure the first thing after it gets rolling will be the TWM EFI. Looks crazy good.
The other curious question is where did you stuff the MAT sensor? I'm not sure if needed to be directly in the airflow, but while drooling over the manifold I was looking for a simple place that makes sense, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to hack one of the throttle bodies or air horns. I'll be making a backfire shield above the throttle bodies so might have a place for it there.
Again, thanks for the tips. As I get a bit closer I'll ask some of the Haltech setup questions that the doc's leave a bit fuzzy.
Sandy
Sandy,
The MAT sensor and atmospheric pressure sensor are mounted on an aluminum bracket between 1 and 2 cylinder throttle bodies. I normally run an air filter, an ITG that covers all 8 throttle bodies. The 2 sensors measure conditions inside the air filter. No MAP sensor. Maps are throttle position vs rpm. Throttle response is excellent. Fuel mileage around 17 mpg. I do run closed loop O2 below about 1/4 throttle.
Yell with any questions about my setup.
Here's a photo that shows the bracket for the MAT and pressure sensors. This photo was taken several years before the engine was installed in the car.
Dave
The MAT sensor and atmospheric pressure sensor are mounted on an aluminum bracket between 1 and 2 cylinder throttle bodies. I normally run an air filter, an ITG that covers all 8 throttle bodies. The 2 sensors measure conditions inside the air filter. No MAP sensor. Maps are throttle position vs rpm. Throttle response is excellent. Fuel mileage around 17 mpg. I do run closed loop O2 below about 1/4 throttle.
Yell with any questions about my setup.
Here's a photo that shows the bracket for the MAT and pressure sensors. This photo was taken several years before the engine was installed in the car.
Dave
Thanks Jimmy.
Check out this website. They show the different models and flow/pressure ratings. If I remember correctly, I purchased part number 6132.
auto performance engineering
Dave
Check out this website. They show the different models and flow/pressure ratings. If I remember correctly, I purchased part number 6132.
auto performance engineering
Dave
Thanks Dave, I'll likely have to do something similar with the MAT. The TWM has the injector rails in the middle so a bit tigher, but I think should not be a proble for a simple bracket. Your finish work looks very nice! And as I got going on the car with the TMW/Haltech I'll give you a holler on some more Haltech setup!
Thanks again, lots of good ideas, and about the only thing I would like to solve is not using the plastic transfer valve. I found some for marine applications but they are huge and really expensive. Might also be as simple as asking Fran if he can put a crossover pipe to the fuel tanks then it's cake.
Thanks again
Sandy
Thanks again, lots of good ideas, and about the only thing I would like to solve is not using the plastic transfer valve. I found some for marine applications but they are huge and really expensive. Might also be as simple as asking Fran if he can put a crossover pipe to the fuel tanks then it's cake.
Thanks again
Sandy
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