Gearbox suitable for 500BHP?
- Thread starter simonjrwinter
- Start date
This topic is an easy search, tons of threads-
Porsche G50-50, 52 are great units although they can command as much $$ as a ZF. The Renault UN1 can be upgraded with Quaife main shaft and other goodies but those units are becomming way of the Dodo bird, parts and such. As for the Audi units, not sure what HP they are capable of upgrading to.
Chris
Porsche G50-50, 52 are great units although they can command as much $$ as a ZF. The Renault UN1 can be upgraded with Quaife main shaft and other goodies but those units are becomming way of the Dodo bird, parts and such. As for the Audi units, not sure what HP they are capable of upgrading to.
Chris
Howard Jones
Supporter
First, "for 500hp" If this means no more than 500hp then I believe that the renault with everything upgraded including a oil cooling system is on the margin. Going towards 600hp and useing it for multilap track work at full song. Thats a lot of money to find out it can't.
Second, The Audi's seam to work fine at about 400hp stock, but I think 500hp is the upper limit. More than that and I believe you are in the same place as the Renault.
Third, The above assumes that they both have limited slips in them and tires that can hold 500hp. There isn't any reason to put 500hp into one of these cars without a limited slip diff and without tires, read slicks, that won't go up in smoke every time you try to use all that power.
Both of the above will stress the gearbox much more so than street tires that turn all that torque into smoke.
So I believe the real answer is no. The Renaults and the Audi's can't handle hard long track work at more than 500 hp without constant rebuild and repair.
The good Porches, 50-5x, will but I still wouldn't just drop in a used one and go for it. I would send it off to a well respected race box setup shop that specializes in Porches and have it worked up. Same for a ZF.
In short 500HP plus is racecar territory with all that its brings with it. I think if you do it right you will end up spending three times the money on the power-train than you do on the motor at 500-600 hp. That's about $7000 for a motor and getting on to 20K for the rest. Its all that little stuff like clutches and flywheels CV joints Half-shafts that add up. Not to mention custom high dollar labor for setup of the gearbox.
At these power levels the power-train is far more technical that the motor. Getting 550 Hp out of a 427 inch stroker isn't all that hard and a lot of suppliers can do it for you. Making a gearbox live a long trouble free life isn't. The few shops that can do this kind of trans-axle work are few and far between.
I would put a hewland behind a 500-600 hp motor and learn to drive the thing. It's no fun to constantly worry about breaking the power-train.
Sorry there just isn't any easy cheep way to do this.
GT40 = Transaxle = $$$$
Second, The Audi's seam to work fine at about 400hp stock, but I think 500hp is the upper limit. More than that and I believe you are in the same place as the Renault.
Third, The above assumes that they both have limited slips in them and tires that can hold 500hp. There isn't any reason to put 500hp into one of these cars without a limited slip diff and without tires, read slicks, that won't go up in smoke every time you try to use all that power.
Both of the above will stress the gearbox much more so than street tires that turn all that torque into smoke.
So I believe the real answer is no. The Renaults and the Audi's can't handle hard long track work at more than 500 hp without constant rebuild and repair.
The good Porches, 50-5x, will but I still wouldn't just drop in a used one and go for it. I would send it off to a well respected race box setup shop that specializes in Porches and have it worked up. Same for a ZF.
In short 500HP plus is racecar territory with all that its brings with it. I think if you do it right you will end up spending three times the money on the power-train than you do on the motor at 500-600 hp. That's about $7000 for a motor and getting on to 20K for the rest. Its all that little stuff like clutches and flywheels CV joints Half-shafts that add up. Not to mention custom high dollar labor for setup of the gearbox.
At these power levels the power-train is far more technical that the motor. Getting 550 Hp out of a 427 inch stroker isn't all that hard and a lot of suppliers can do it for you. Making a gearbox live a long trouble free life isn't. The few shops that can do this kind of trans-axle work are few and far between.
I would put a hewland behind a 500-600 hp motor and learn to drive the thing. It's no fun to constantly worry about breaking the power-train.
Sorry there just isn't any easy cheep way to do this.
GT40 = Transaxle = $$$$
One might consider the Porsche 930 box. It is a 4 speed, but one of the strongest boxes they make and was/is the box a lot of the racers used. If you look at most of the 5 and 6 speeds and their 1st gear ratios to final drive ratio, you will see that most 1st gears are almost unusable as they are very low. The 930s are geting to be a rare comodity as are a lot of the stronger units. I haven't seen one on ebay in over a year. A good 930 will run you ~5K$ U. S. I have/had 2 sources for the boxes. They as well as most Porsche transaxels will need reworking at ~40K miles. A good rebuild will run ~2.5K$ U.S., at least that is what my sources tell me.
Thanks guys,
I'm just mulling something over at the moment. IF I decide to go this route, I think it better that I de-tune the engine to make it more user friendly. It's currently making 490BHP and about the same ft/lbs of torque. I like a smooth idling/mechanically quiet engine, so a milder cam would be the order of the day. IF (and it's a big if) if the project comes off, it'll be a road car primarily, with the emphasis on a quiet (!) ride. I think the engine I have (its a DWR 408 cu in stroker) even de-tuned should be good for 400 BHP and be PLENTY quick enough for a lightweight road car.
Simon
I'm just mulling something over at the moment. IF I decide to go this route, I think it better that I de-tune the engine to make it more user friendly. It's currently making 490BHP and about the same ft/lbs of torque. I like a smooth idling/mechanically quiet engine, so a milder cam would be the order of the day. IF (and it's a big if) if the project comes off, it'll be a road car primarily, with the emphasis on a quiet (!) ride. I think the engine I have (its a DWR 408 cu in stroker) even de-tuned should be good for 400 BHP and be PLENTY quick enough for a lightweight road car.
Simon
Hi Simon
I'm currently running a 600 BHP Chevy through my Ultima Can Am with slick tyres with a Porsche G50.50 and I dosent moan at all.
I ran it all last year with the same engine but when it had 550 BHP.
So I'm building a 640 BHP GTD 40 at the moment again with the G50 the only problem is the gear shift mechanism , but I'm working on it.
'FOOD FOR THOUGHT'
I'm currently running a 600 BHP Chevy through my Ultima Can Am with slick tyres with a Porsche G50.50 and I dosent moan at all.
I ran it all last year with the same engine but when it had 550 BHP.
So I'm building a 640 BHP GTD 40 at the moment again with the G50 the only problem is the gear shift mechanism , but I'm working on it.
'FOOD FOR THOUGHT'
Tim Kay
Lifetime Supporter
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone know of a bellhousing for the ford windsor block to the G50 gearbox enabling the use of the full size flywheel/clutch?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, but here's an option for Windsor\G50:
11# flywheel, Tilton carbon\carbon with a concentric hydraulic throwout bearing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Does anyone know of a bellhousing for the ford windsor block to the G50 gearbox enabling the use of the full size flywheel/clutch?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, but here's an option for Windsor\G50:
11# flywheel, Tilton carbon\carbon with a concentric hydraulic throwout bearing /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Attachments
flatchat(Chris)
Supporter
The Ricardo transaxle used in the Ford GT is supposedly good to 650 hp, and in a 3,400 pound car at that. Big bucks, but then, that's to be expected when you're playing around in the upper range of high-HP powertrains.
Audi adopt a different strategy with there shafts to some other manufacturers, if you look at some of the heavier HP versions of there boxes they actually allow the shaft into the box to windup a bit to absorb Hi Torque, bit like a torsion bar. So beefing up some internals could be troublesome and move strain to a part of the box not designed for it.
The only box I think could withstand 500 - 600 BHP would be the Porsche 930 Gearbox, although a 4 speed there are 5 speed add ons for this box, only thing is having wrestled with a few I could not get over the weight of the 930 box, compared to 60 kgs for an Audi 01E
Cheers
The only box I think could withstand 500 - 600 BHP would be the Porsche 930 Gearbox, although a 4 speed there are 5 speed add ons for this box, only thing is having wrestled with a few I could not get over the weight of the 930 box, compared to 60 kgs for an Audi 01E
Cheers
Ron Earp
Admin
Wanni,
I've sent a PM but I'll post it openly here. You have posted on two threads about transaxles with a simple one line reply for the readers to look at your transaxles. One of the threads was over a year old.
You are welcome to enter into discussions on this forum. I'm sure you have knowledge to contribute to transaxle discussions. But advertising in the way you are doing it is not welcome on the forum.
If you are confused about proper use of the forum please PM me and I'll try and explain it to you. Or ask in the Forum Help section and I or one of the other admins will help you. If you continue posting on threads in this fashion you will be banned from the forum.
My advice is the read on the forum, contribute where you can help, and build up a reputation. I'm sure folks will learn of your product that way and that is the best advertising one can possibly have.
Thanks.
Ron
I've sent a PM but I'll post it openly here. You have posted on two threads about transaxles with a simple one line reply for the readers to look at your transaxles. One of the threads was over a year old.
You are welcome to enter into discussions on this forum. I'm sure you have knowledge to contribute to transaxle discussions. But advertising in the way you are doing it is not welcome on the forum.
If you are confused about proper use of the forum please PM me and I'll try and explain it to you. Or ask in the Forum Help section and I or one of the other admins will help you. If you continue posting on threads in this fashion you will be banned from the forum.
My advice is the read on the forum, contribute where you can help, and build up a reputation. I'm sure folks will learn of your product that way and that is the best advertising one can possibly have.
Thanks.
Ron
Will try, Ron
considere that my mother tongue is french, italian the second language and finaly english. It is not simple to walk on the border without putting a foot outside, sometimes.
Regarding CIMA gearbox, very soon it will be installed on 3 US supercars. I hope it will meet the expectation of the pubblic.
Ciao.
Wanni
considere that my mother tongue is french, italian the second language and finaly english. It is not simple to walk on the border without putting a foot outside, sometimes.
Regarding CIMA gearbox, very soon it will be installed on 3 US supercars. I hope it will meet the expectation of the pubblic.
Ciao.
Wanni
Ron Earp
Admin
Thank you, I appreciate it. I know it cannot be easy on our non-native English speakers! I can't imagine trying to participate in a German or French forum, the only two languages I know a few words in. You're doing a much better job than I would, that is certain.
Hang out, interact with members, and contribute where you feel comfortable. I'm sure people will be interested in your experiences and knowledge of transaxles. But, also bear in mind there is a lot of experience of various types that exist on the forum and different people have different ideas of what they want out of their transaxle.
Best,
Ron
Hang out, interact with members, and contribute where you feel comfortable. I'm sure people will be interested in your experiences and knowledge of transaxles. But, also bear in mind there is a lot of experience of various types that exist on the forum and different people have different ideas of what they want out of their transaxle.
Best,
Ron
Just F.Y.I., the v8 hybrid 944 guys are getting along with 400 rear wheel HP with no dropped clutch starts. (couldn't find the torque #'s) This is with Chevy 350 LT4's. Their is one guy tha has one with a highly modified Grand National V6 that puts out 540 rear wheel horepower and 700 lbs ft torque! He however has already gone through 4 turbo S transaxles so far without dropped clutch starts.
All are with 944 turbo transaxles with limited slip which are already stronger than the AUDI 016. The S has shot peened shafts, gears, a larger ring gear and a larger front pinion bearing.
All are with 944 turbo transaxles with limited slip which are already stronger than the AUDI 016. The S has shot peened shafts, gears, a larger ring gear and a larger front pinion bearing.
