Do I need to upgrade the Renault UN1

I am in the process of ordering a new engine. I will choose for a SVO 345hp crate or a 347 stroker crate. The car is mainly used for the road and an occasional trackday. The car is fitted with a standard R30 Renault UN1 box. The question is, is it necessary to upgrade the inputshaft, etc for both engine options, or will the standard box be fine for the SVO engine?

Regards,

Gerard
 
Gerard, as you are useing the R30 gearbox ( are you sure it is a Renault 30-this will be very low geared if a standard 3.88 diff ?) you will need to use a smaller diameter flywheel, which in turn will mean you must have the engine disassembled and machine balanced with the flywheel you are to use. In some ways this negates the saving buying a crate engine, and it may be better to have a custom built engine put together which will suit all your needs. Frank
 
Frank,

I know that the flywheel of the crate engine doesn't fit in the bellhousing/adapterplate of the engine. But the question is, to what kind of power and torque can the UN1 in standard form handle. Because upgrading the box costs around 5000 Euro for the all upgrade bits.

Regards,

Gerard
 
That question has been asked many times on this Forum, and the answer is it depends on how you use it. If you are soft road driver I have seen cars with 350HP plus never have a problem, If you are a competition track driver doing big clutch starts then you can break it with 300HP, so ask yourself, "do I feel lucky ?"
 
Hi Gerard

Re the UN1 - there are plenty of people out there running with 340 - 360 - even 380+ bhp that have not sufferred any problems. It really depends on the intended use and other variables.

If your car is heavy, say 1350+ Kg and you run sticky slicks on circuit, you'll hit the box a lot more than someone who has built lighter, running on less grippy road rubber, mainly on the road - FACT!

In my experience, once you go over about 380 BHP (flywheel), driven hard, you will probably have the quill shaft fail first. This is the 'replaceable' input extension that generally fails where is necks down. Torque is a killer for these.... Roy's shattered many years ago when it was 'floored' in 4th with slicks on. I also feel the final ratio has a lot to play in the equations, if you run the 3.88, you'll probably have less of an issue than the 3.44. The clutch can also have a bearing on the failure rate, the metallic paddle clutches that we favour over here for sprints/hill climbs are possibly a bit more brutal in their initial takeup, than an organic design, although there is definately a 'knack' that can be learned through practice. (the paddles will wear the flywheel more though).

One thing to watch is wheel-spin!, without an LSD, ATB or otherwise, there will be a tendancy to spin the near-side (UK) rear wheel on hard acceleration. Unfortunately, the standard Renault diffs that have planet gears on plain bearing shafts do not take too well to this. They overheat, sieze, break and then these pins usually exit the large hole in the diff side centre, get hooked up in the crown and pinion, and BANG goes the outer casing!! - oop's!
I personally know of 4 UK competitors that had just this type of failure in competition. (and people said I had a heavy right foot!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

So, to sum up - keep it below 380BHP, keep the torque sensible and avoid wheelspin! - yeah right!

Seriously though, the UN1 is a great box really, considering its origins and for MOST applications is just fine.

ps - thinking about it, our Rodger 'BIG BLOCK' Burston still has a standard unit in his GTD even with his stroked 351 (408ci) on Webbers - can't be trying hard enough!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/1poke.gif
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Two things, One you can mirror balance the GTD flywheel to the 5.0 flywheel that came with the crate motor. This is done all the time. You will end up with the same standard of balance that came with the motor to begin with. Put a 6K chip in the rev limiter and it will be fine.

Two, The question is how quickly do you want to go on track? If the answer is I want to pass all them peasants in the M5's then you NEED a LSD in the gearbox. If you go there then you might a well upgrade the box. If you do you should think about changing the final ratio to 3.44 it makes the car far more fun to drive on the freeway. I really think that its money well spent if you want to track the car aggressively.

Put the 302 in it and spend the extra money on the gearbox.

I just got my R21 back from Chris Cole with the full treatment. I expect to put it back in the car real soon so watch the Service/Parts needed thread for a update.
 
Howard,

Thanks for your replies they confirm my initial thoughts. The car will be used mainly for road use and an occasional track day. Although I have a respectable CV in karting and autosport, my thoughts were the same that over 400bhp will be useless with road tires. In my opinion with the revs that we make, it is torque that counts. I will go for the upgraded bits for transaxle.

Regards,

Gerard
 
Paul,

Thanks for your information. These answers make the forum so valuable. I will upgrade the box.

Regards,

Gerard
 
Gerard,

Another idea for your gearbox UN1, mine is less system cooling gearbox, and on dry track, after 30' to 1 hour of practice, the gear aren't easy to pass....
on wet track, with low temperature, it's easy all the day.

so, if you have to used on track in good condition (sun), you have to thing about cooling for the gear....

regards
Olivier
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Paul, Help me understand why a 3.44 diff would be subject to more stress than a 3.89 box. I would have thought that the 3.89 box having everything spinning faster inside would make more heat. This one has me stumped unless its that the 3.44 transmits less torque through the box because it has less torque multiplication and the gearbox absorbs the torque from the engine instead of passing it on to the wheels. Thus more heat retained in the gearbox.

I really don't know enough about this subject to really understand it fully.

Am I close?
 
Hi Howard

I would certainly not describe myself as an expert on these matters, I talk generally from experience and my understanding+some assumptions (hopefully correct).

My background is electronics, having served an apprentiship at the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough + computing/iT, however I have always had an interest in all things mechanical, as my father was a precision engineer/toolmaker, designing among other things pressure transducers as used on the 'Tornado' fighter. He was responsible for my interest in all things mechanical, despite me having had no formal training or tuition in the field.

Anyway - I digress.......

The reasoning I have re the the 3.44 diff opposed to the 3.88 goes as follows.

Take the diff scenario to the extreme with 2 diff's being used on the same car on level ground, one 1:1 and the other 10:1. I would expect the 10:1 diff to offer very little build up of torque on the gearbox quill shaft (ie,flywheel to gearbox), the mechanical advantage of the 10:1 diff would 'light the tyres up' easily although top speeds would be very low. Whereas the 1:1 diff would be a sod to get moving with, without the mechanical assistance, you'd either have to dump the clutch at high rpm, and hope! or slip the clutch causing excess wear and a slow take up.

High torque motors would make getting moving at lower revs easier, but again, would load the quill shaft up more on the mechanically challenged 1:1 as opposed to the assisting 10:1. I know I have used extremes but that is how I see it, I have driven cars of similar power with 3.88 diff's and 3.44 diffs, the 3.88's seem to accelerate more quickly but run out of steam earlier so you need to shift earlier/more often. Of course, once you break traction, the motor's availability of additional power/torque becomes irrelevant as it is then being 'wasted' anyway.

Derek Bell's conversion for the UN1 was good in many ways, it made the input shaft one piece and a min of 1" dia or more from end to end, plus gave longer ratios for both 1st and second gear - very useful for getting an advantage out of slow corners if you have enough motor to use it.

Finally (cos I'm rambling now) - add slick tyres to the equation. With them as sticky as possible on a hot day, the 3.44 then still generates a higher load on the quill that the 3.88 at any given rpm. When Roy's quill broke, we were hard on the throttle in 4th, on slicks, at about 4000rpm.

We (read me - oop's) have only ever broken one drive shaft to date. As I regularly started in 2nd on Roy's car, to avoid the shift from 1st to 2nd and as his motor was happy with it, it should have been easy-peasy at Gurston Down hill climb, especially as the start points you 'down-hill'.

However, as I approached the start line I returned to 1st by mistake and realising this, I selected what I thought was second, oop's I selected 4th in my haste, so really the driveshaft had little chance, 2000rpm, get the bite and as the clutch engages 'floor-it' - BANG! - my mistake, driver error, but still the Derek Bell parts survived unscathed!

Not wanting to tempt fate, there has NOT BEEN ONE FAILURE of a Derek Bell conversion to date that I am aware of.

So that is how I see it, hopefully the many more 'mechanically knowledgeable' among the forum members /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flehan.gif will be able to explain the above in more scientific terms and more hopefully, prove what I've said is NOT a load of 'twaddle' - but if they do - then what the hell, at least I continue to learn.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Paul, Thanks, thats what I think I was thinking. The 10 to 1 verces the 1 to 1 example makes it very clear. I have just put a R21 with the Quaife internals/torque bias diff as built by Chris Cole back in my car. Finished up last night!

I am looking forward to driving it an will report on my experiance when I have a complete impression.

I believe that the R21's with the upgraded parts make for a very good lightweight 5 speed in these cars.
 
Will be good to hear your impressions - I bet you are gonna love the ATB Diff /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As well as posting here, perhaps you could drop me a line and a few pics, would make great reading as a 'hands-on, un-biased' report for our club mag, especially for those technophobes who still avoid PCs and the internet like the plague...(more than you would think) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
 
How's the new box performing Howard? I am seriously looking at ordering one of these units but would like some feedback from existing customers. Cheers.
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
I have driven the car a little since I put it back together. So far so good. But I haven't enough time in yet to really write a fair evaluation. The ABT is FOR SURE REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, COOL!!!! I also like the new gear ratios much better that the originals.

As far as is it worth the money. Well there really isn't much in the way of alternatives. Changing over to a Porche would be a LOT more money without even beginning to re engineer the chassis for it to fit. The Audi's are really about the same as the stock Renault's far as strength gos. Everything else. RBT's ZF's others are WAY more money.

In the end you just have to make a decision and go for it.

I'm going to write up something after I get back from a track day in May. Watch the thread in Parts/ Service wanted.
 
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