Drive Shafts How much side play?

Ok I'm not sure on the terminology but

On the DAX

Left hand drive shaft has play (end to end taken up by CV joints) when the car is at rest

Right hand one is tight, so presumably puttting a force on the Renault adaptor / roll pin and possibly the seals (that could account for the oil leaks)

So how much play is acceptable and how do you check the play amount? Just wiggle the shaft in full bump / rebound and neutral? Is there some device to check this?

Or is it that the Dax got the measurements wrong on their suspension (doubtful with Tojero on their team)

Perhaps adjusting wheel further out will sort this but then the rim will be outside body shell. So another problem?

Thanks
Ian

The right should not be tight! In bump and rebound it will cause damage. From memory my car has about 1/4 in play along the length of the shaft Never had prblems with it. If you want to come see, just call or pop round.

Ian
You should have no bind on those shafts throughout your complete suspension travel (Travel limited to the shock travel), and different CV joints have different amounts of plunge, bottoming them out can cause damage. I would suggest that you check your motor/gearbox side to side alignment. While this may be a bear to correct, it may be the only solution aside from shortening the shaft that is binding. Don't worry about side to side travel in the shaft...it will float between the two CV's just fine, but by all means eliminate that bind.
Cheers
Phil

Ian,
here are the notes I made regarding my leakingRHS. You will see that I moved the wheel out 4mm, with my 255/60/15 tyres they are still within the wheel arch at the top. The way the wheel arch curves inwards as it goes down, a fair bit of tyre shows outside the arch once you get toward the wheel centre anyway, so the 4mm didn't make any difference for me see photo.

Just one other thing, you said that the LHS had free play when the car is at rest. Then you said the RHS was tight. I presume this means that the RHS is binding before there is any droop. If so, that is really bad because on rebound the drive shaft would physically push the transaxle sideways.
Mine was ok neutral and bump, but binding on droop, and the roll pin was broken, so if that is anything to go by, yours would be too.
Phils suggestion about the transaxle being off centre is also a good point. You do have play in the RHS at some point dont you? If you dont, you have to check with the suspension disconnected in case the CV joint has a problem.

"Sept 04 Leakage from OS seal. Roll pin is broken, seal looks ok. Oil coming along spline and into centre of rollpin?
1/10/04
Ref leakage from RHS Transaxle.
Roll pin that secures Drive Shaft Hub to gearbox output spline was broken. Think the leakage was along the spline and out the roll pin. The roll pin has broken because the suspension closes the drive shaft on full droop and the load is taken on the roll pin.
With the roll pin out, 1/3 to half the 6mm hole is obscured, suggesting 2-3mm interference. So increasing track 4mm per side at the rose joints is in order.
The rose joints have a 5/8" unf thread pitch 1.41mm so 2.5 (3.5mm) to 3 turns (4.2mm) should suffice.
Did 3 turns, have 11 turns (15.5mm) thread still engaged on Rose joints which is ok.

13/11/04 Did knockhill trackday, no leakage."

Hope this helps

Dave

Dave

I jacked up the car and wheels were hanging and there was some play (1/4 inch I would estimate) but when on it's wheels it was tight (The left side had about twice the play)

I moved the suspension OUT 2.5 turns re assembled and again on droop there was play but again when on the wheels i was tight again

Got the hell in and packed it away as the dark clowds rolled in (it actually stayed dry)

The CV joints were both new units (New Recon units as I would not pay the VW £130 each compared to £45)- but that does not mean they are not snagging themselves somehow.

I would also think the rollpin has been broken as it is only "felt" on one side so not covering full diameter of the adaptor (is this normal?)

Could it be that I have the drive shafts a maximum and need to bring the wheel inboard?

thanks
ian

Ian
ok, the fact that you do have free play on droop says your drive shaft is probably ok.
The fact that your drive shaft binds at normal, and mine at droop, may mean that your transaxle is set higher than mine. (The drive shaft has to shorten as the wheel centre height approaches the transaxle height).

I do not think that the suspension can be adjusted far enough out to extend the drive shafts fully, so I think you still need to come out further.

If you take some measurements, we can compare with mine.
1 Top arm length (centre of bush to centre of Rose Joint) 305mm (approx)
2 Distance from Rose Joint centre to end of top arm where the joint screws in.

3 Bottom arm length 335mm (approx)

4 Distance from Rose Joint centre to end of Bottom arm where the joint screws in.

5 Height of drive hub centreline on transaxle relative to top and bottom arm pivot points on chassis.

6 Length from transaxle to back of drive hub at wheel on each side.

Dave

A brief note on "reconditioned" CV axles here. "Reconditioning" consists of simply measuring the balls and races and replacing any that are grossly out of spec. If there is a ball which is out of round or worn substantially, what goes in is not a new ball but rather a used ball which is within spec from a big pile of used balls over in the corner. Same for the race. Don't go thinking that "reconditioned" means all new balls or races because that's very far from the truth. In addition to the above, "reconditioning" obviously includes sand blasting the axle itself, and repacking the joints with new seals and grease. In short, there's a reason why "reconditioning" is so much less expensive than a new axle.

Grovelled around with a lead light and got the following measurements
all with a truly unscientific tape measure!

Bottom left suspemsion a Arm at rear Center of bolt to center of bolt 345mm
Right 350 (that would account for my 2.5 turn adjustment

On the top arm
Left 310
Right 310 ( again center to center and I did not alter tis so seems correct)

I jacked up the chassis and at 185mm ground clearance at rear crossmember under gearbox

Play left drive shaft approx 3/4 inch
Play right drive shaft approx 3/8 inch

In this position (jacked up to tyres almost leaving floor)
Left drive shaft from inner face CV to inner face CV 380mm
Right drive shaft 370mm
The difference in these measurements equates to my estimate of the 3/8 inch less movement (about 10mm)

I could not figure a way of measuring the distance a drive shaft adaptor sticks out from the gearbox center line with a ruler and tape measure while grovelling under the car and being eaten by bugs visiting the lead light. Any ideas on how to check this?

Totally unscientific
Tape measure from outside of bolt head bottom A Arm inner mounting around bottom of geabos to bolt head on other side gave 560mm with 280mm being the join line on the bottom of the gearbox so it looks like the gerbox is central to the chassis and suspension mount points.

Drop to remove jack and right shaft was tight again

What elce other than new driveshafts made to measure? (Can't afford that at present)

Thanks
Ian

I suppose moving the engine/trans assy 5mm to the Left would be to hard or too easy.

Jac Mac

Ian, my drive shaft lengths LH400 RH390, my top arms are now both 310 after adjustment. I will get the other measurements later, but the significant thing is the length of the drive shafts. Check the numbers on your drive shaft and we can compare them. Also there could be a difference in our hub assemblies, changing the outer CV position relative to the upright. So it would be a good idea to find a way of comparing that. I will have a look tonight.

Dave

Dave
There are 2 CVs available and one is about 1/4 inch thicker than the other so that would also make a difference to length between CV faces on the axle

Question
Is a CV only able to move in one direction from it's mid point - could I have put one on the drive shaft the wrong way around? So it won't move correctly?

Thanks
Ian

Ian, have the CVs ever been taken apart ? I have seen CVJs reassembled with the central "spider" put in the wrong way round, it can be done but it causes the spider, therefore the shaft, to be unable to move sideways in the joint. Frank

Frank
Yes the balls fell out of one and I reassembled it. The internal spline bit, spider and outer did not come apart.
I did not turn the central spider over and just inserted the balls

Perhaps though time to take the drive shft off and recheck it moves freely.

Ian

I think I have it fixed

Put on stands
Pulled the suspension apart
Wound it out a further 4 turns (checked and still loads of thread left)
Reassembled and it was tight even on droop
It really gave a firm suspension setting as I stuck the jack inder the hub and tried to raise the suspension the whole rear lifter.

Did a firther dis assemble
Wond he rod ends back 10 full turns each and re assembled

Got play on droop
Jack under hub and crank it to approx "at rest" suspension up still play
Carry on jacking until chassis lifting off axle stands and still got play

So it looks like I had no play but the axle was in tension not compression

Dropped off axle stands and I think it's about right

Ran out of daylight so packed her up and back into single garage.

I have new roll pins arriving in the mail tomorrow - drift them in and ready to roll - just in time for Paul Thomson to check over the EFi and try to get a bit less heat out the exhausts.

Thanks to all for the assistance

Cheers
Ian