New 016 thread...

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CliffBeer

CURRENTLY BANNED
Wanted to pose two questions to all the 016 fans (including me) here:

1. Were all the 016 boxes the same from the perspective of durability? Said another way, disregarding differing ratios, are all the 016 boxes equally durable? Did they all come with the same hardness/strength for gears and cases and bearings?

2. The AFC 016 has pretty good ratios - much better than the 5N for example. Has anybody run an AFC?

Thanks!
 
C

CliffBeer

CURRENTLY BANNED
Wow, was really hoping there were some 016 experts here on the forum that might have some thoughts to share....

I'm guessing that all the 016s are the same internally aside from gearing ratios. Specifically, hardness/durability of spider gears, cases, etc. is all the same most likely given that all the Audi engines the 016s were bolted to are relatively low hp engines.

I'm surprised nobody has any experience with the AFC 016 box. I have one in my garage and the ratios look to be pretty good. So, I'll install it and report back soon.
 
Ron Earp

Ron Earp

Admin
Hi Cliff,

If you've used the search engine you've probably found everything available on the forum about the 016. As far as I'm aware no new 016 experts have shown up on the forum. Unfotunately, not much real information is out there about the 016 - just a lot of hearsay for the most part which was one of the reasons I started that 016 thread looking for information from real-world users, not bar stool transaxle discussions.

Right now I have an AFC hooked up to the motor in the RCR chassis. However, with enduro prep etc. I'm probably a month away from getting back on it and around 2-3 months away from driving it around. I didn't really see that the AFC was that much better as my data shows the gear ratios being the same for gears 1-5.

Final in the 5N is 4.11, final in the AAZ is 3.89. Thus, with the same tire and gear combo the AFC is only going to knock 157 RPM off engine speed at a cruise speed in 5th gear. Not a lot really if you are after a reduction in cruise RPM.

The 3U would be what you are maybe after as it'll give you fairly dramatic changes overall. I bought two into the country some years back and there are write ups about that on the forum as well as use of the box. Some others have done that since then as well, I think. That, or the 5th gear swap out, might give you a much lower cruise RPM if that is your goal.

Ron
 
E

Eric A.

If you figure the final drive ratio by combining the R&P ratios and the 5th gear there isn't much difference between the 5N and the others. However if you swap the 5N fifth gear into the other boxes there is an improvement in highway cruising RPM.
 
C

CliffBeer

CURRENTLY BANNED
Ron, I don't understand. To be specific:

1. The .xls audi ratios chart I have (I believe this is the one you prep'd) shows a significantly lower rpm at 75mph for the AFC v. AAZ. To be precise, the AFC box indicates 2,690rpm at 75mph while the AAZ indicates 3,169rpm at 75mph (see attached). Am I reading the chart incorrectly?

2. Yes, I think you're right - my question regarding the durability/strength of the 016 box across the various iterations does not appear to have been previously posed, nor does there seem to be any prior discussion of this exact point of inquiry in any prior forum dialog. Thus, I don't believe reviewing prior 016 threads would be fruitful (I did review them). Wondering if you or anyone who knows a thing or two about the 016 has any actual substantive experience on this point.

Thank you!
 

Attachments

  • Audi Transaxle Ratios V5.xls
    73 KB · Views: 296
M

Mike Dozier

Cliff

Agreed...we've seen nothing to indicate any mechanical differences
betweeen 016 boxes other than ratios.

As to why the lack of feedback on 016 road experience...that's a puzzle.
I assume (?) most CAV's were built with 016's...but we've seen little response.
I guess most CAV owners don't frequent the Forum.

Quite a few RFs were/are being built with the 016....but very few are running
in the US. Hershel's (RF) and Neal's (NZ) are the only 016 reports I can recall
(other than the Lambo thread).

Since these cars are few and far between, with long gestation periods,
one can surmise it will take a while to accumulate significant data.
In the meantime we listen to those who do have first hand knowledge,
and draw our own conclusion.

MikeD
 
Ron Earp

Ron Earp

Admin
CliffBeer said:
Ron, I don't understand. To be specific:

1. The .xls audi ratios chart I have (I believe this is the one you prep'd) shows a significantly lower rpm at 75mph for the AFC v. AAZ. To be precise, the AFC box indicates 2,690rpm at 75mph while the AAZ indicates 3,169rpm at 75
Click to expand...
You are reading correctly, but your original post:

CliffBeer said:
2. The AFC 016 has pretty good ratios - much better than the 5N for example. Has anybody run an AFC?
Click to expand...
I thought was asking about the 5N verus AFC, in which there is very little difference.

Between the AFZ and AAZ, yes, it appears to be a decent difference, about 500 RPM.

There has been little if any discussion regarding strength of the various boxes. The guy with the most experience in my opinion, that I've read on the forum, was the fellow with the Lambo replicas, Rambo Lambo, who has the site which shows a lot about the boxes. He had first hand knowledge of multiple failures in the box and offered some solutions for fixing them, as well as some preventive measures.

On the Excel sheet, I prepped the first one that was simple, many years ago, but it got added to considerably over the years by many others and is now a product of the forum - good stuff! Probably should have it on the front page as much as transaxle stuff comes up.

Seriously, if you are after low cruise RPMs a 3U would be a good ticket for you. Or, simply go over to a ZF and not worry about the 016 any longer. If your 016 is in good shape, has an LSD, then you could get pretty decent money for it these days toward a ZF.

Mike I don't know how many CAVs were done with 016s. Many certainly on the first iteration of CAV before that company dissolved. The first company had a lot of space frames, the GTD derivative, that was certainly setup for an 016 as I remember in the early years, then the first version of the mono chassis took 016s too. But the second CAV company (current company) has only ZFs I think as the transaxle choice, not 100% sure on that.
 
S

Strobe

Gents

My understanding is the same as yourselves, a big % of the CAV's even through monos were decked out with the Audi 016 box. Some however have Porsche iteration with the 944T LSD inside the 016 extended case.
I believe that the likes of JCOOP has a standard 016 in his mono029 for instance.

From a durability perpective it would seem from the lack of response that there are limited problems with the box. However it would be interesting to see how many horses are being run through these boxes. My experience with Geoff Hurrell down here in Cape town is that his standard box gave up after 1500miles on 390HP.

From the perspective of the ratios, this is tricky because it depends on what you do with the machine and experience of the driver. I for one have not enough experience to tell a good set of ratios from bad even but maybe track time would change my insight quickly.
 
S

Strobe

From my limited reading on the standard box one of the main failures was the secondary casing cracking from bearing being thrown during shaft recoil. The solution was insertion of a steel plate with porting for oil and accomodation of gears. Equivalent length was skimmed from casing to maintain overall length.
Interestingly the Porsche 944T guts require a slightly longer casing so my box has a carbon steel spacers between casing sections. I split my box two weeks ago to inspect this. It is not anywhere as elaborate a machined part as Lambo lounge mods but then again maybe doesnt need to be? Will tell you if it fails.....
 
M

Mike Dozier

Ron

Agreed....however I've seen little to indicate the "current" CAV (AutoFutura)
will sell as many cars into the US as the "old" CAV did.
Not to say they (Auto Futura) are not successful...just that nearly all CAV's I've seen in print/shows/E-bay etc are "old CAV".

I'll bet someone knows exactly how many old CAVs were shipped to the US.
I'm guessing 50-60....yet we've heard from probably 10 or fewer owners.
Just my perception.....

But I drift from the thread....one must assume the 016s hold up well
under "moderate" driving otherwise the many CAV owners would have discovered and reported otherwise. Racing is a whole different cup of tea...can't wait to see how your tranny fairs !

MikeD
 
Ron Earp

Ron Earp

Admin
MikeDD said:
I'll bet someone knows exactly how many old CAVs were shipped to the US.
I'm guessing 50-60....yet we've heard from probably 10 or fewer owners.
Just my perception.....

But I drift from the thread....one must assume the 016s hold up well
under "moderate" driving otherwise the many CAV owners would have discovered and reported otherwise. Racing is a whole different cup of tea...can't wait to see how your tranny fairs !

MikeD
Click to expand...
Might go boom! But you can bet I won't be shy about posting the particulars!

There are so few 40s used for track duty outside the UK, it seems to me. I know of many in the UK that are abused heavily, but they are using anything but a 016, and most are using beefed up Renaults.

In the US I've not seen any GT40s raced, but have seen a few tracked. Hershal used to track his RF and he blew up at least on 016, if not more, but I heard they were on drag starts. Howard and a couple others have tracked their cars but I *think* they were Renaults too.

I've seen a couple of ERAs lightly driven around at a SAAC event with ZFs. The only CAVs I've seen were at events in the corral or show area, not on track, but their owners were not interested in tracking. Most of them I remember seeing (if not all) back in the 2001-2004 era were 016 CAVs. For as many cars as CAV have put into the US you are correct in that it doesn't seem like we hear about many CAVs, but the demographic might be different they are selling to.

Australia has a couple of 40s (RF and DRB) tracked, but I think they are ZF 40s too.

I digress, to answer the question, the LamboLounge, that was the place with a fair amout of 016 stuff wasn't it?
 
J

JCoop

I do have the Audi016 in my CAV29 is actually what drove me to the computer this evening. I have just over 3000 miles on it and the gearbox seems to be holding up pretty well. She shifts like butter and I actually like the ratios for the driving that I do. My only complaint are the inner CV joints. I started to get grease spit around the area from the RH side (where the speedo magnetic pickup is) right about 1500 miles. Various fixes all proved temporary and using plumber's glue and lockwashers seem to provide the longest lasting fix. After installing the Webers at around 2400 miles, some spirited driving resulted in the LH CV joint's bolts almost halfway out by the time I dicovered it, and the RH side spitting grease again. For lack of a more permanent solution, I re-did the plumber's glue fix again. Yesterday, I took a 200 mile drive up the Catskills foothills for a show and to take in the fall foliage colors and when I got back, the bolts on the LH side were loose again; with the requisite grease spit all over again. I think the transaxle is supposed to take up to 400 hp? I don't think so. The Webers probably added 30 to the 345 that the crate 302 puts out. The gears seem to be taking it well.
Mybe nylocks at the other end of these bolts?
 
R

Richard Timte

Ray aka Jcoop,

If your CV joint bolts are backing out don't just put a wrench on them and go back out. I would drill and wire tie them things up. If you don't it may cost you a lot more than you think (body, upright ect). This is also a safty thing and if it comes loose it will not only eating up some of your car, it might causing damage or injury to someone else. Drill and wire them just like you would a rotor and hat.

Just a little advise (take it or leave it)

Dam Ron, I was putting this little post and you beat me to it.
 
P

Pete T

I can't say specifically about the Audi 016. I have been researching the 016 from the 924/944. With these, there is not much difference between the Porsche 016 until the 944 turbo, 944S/S2. Porsche did not use the synchronization for reverse on any.
Starting with the 944 turbo, 944S/S2 the transaxle was called 083. However this designation changed only a few things. 3rd gear is wider which is what increases the case and pinion lengths. The case is machined for the 944 turbo R & P and the front (gear side) pinion bearing bore is larger. This bearing is larger mainly because of the turbo pinion gear diameter increase. The turbo has a 3.375 R & P and the others in this group have a new 3.875 (8:31) R & P. The new 3.875 is much stronger than the 3.88 due to gear tooth design. The only other difference is in the turbo S unit which has shot peened gears and shafts.
 
ckouba

Chris Kouba

Supporter
Ron Earp said:
...Hershal used to track his RF and he blew up at least on 016, if not more, but I heard they were on drag starts...
Click to expand...

Hey Ron,

I chatted about transmissions with Hersh when I first visited AZ about a year ago so my memory may be a little fuzzy around this but I am pretty sure he smoked the clutch and not the box- at least if we're thinking of the same incident. I believe he still has the same box in the car that he built it with after 50 or 60k miles.

I am very curious to see how the box you've built holds up and to see your build come together. Good luck with the Enduro prep.

Chris
 
C

CliffBeer

CURRENTLY BANNED
Ron Earp said:
You are reading correctly, but your original post:


I thought was asking about the 5N verus AFC, in which there is very little difference.

Between the AFZ and AAZ, yes, it appears to be a decent difference, about 500 RPM.

There has been little if any discussion regarding strength of the various boxes. The guy with the most experience in my opinion, that I've read on the forum, was the fellow with the Lambo replicas, Rambo Lambo, who has the site which shows a lot about the boxes. He had first hand knowledge of multiple failures in the box and offered some solutions for fixing them, as well as some preventive measures.

On the Excel sheet, I prepped the first one that was simple, many years ago, but it got added to considerably over the years by many others and is now a product of the forum - good stuff! Probably should have it on the front page as much as transaxle stuff comes up.

Seriously, if you are after low cruise RPMs a 3U would be a good ticket for you. Or, simply go over to a ZF and not worry about the 016 any longer. If your 016 is in good shape, has an LSD, then you could get pretty decent money for it these days toward a ZF.

Ron, thanks, understood re: 5N v. AAZ v. AFC. I'll report back on the AFC ratios after installation and she gets a few miles under her belt.
Click to expand...
 
M

Mark Worthington

No real tech, per se, but a couple observations:

1) If you've ever worked on an Audi S4, you'd probably agree that Audi over-engineers things. THis is good, and it's part of the reason why the 016 transaxle, which was originally used in a 162-hp, 177-lb-ft car (specs from 1988 Audi 5000 CS) has withstood abuse in 300+ hp GT40s.

2) I'm more familiar with the 01E part numbers and design modifications than the 016, but I suspect that the 016, like the 01E, was improved over time by Audi. As their cars got heavier and more powerful, Audi made subtle design changes to the 01E, such as the wider first gear, different input shafts, etc. I think its a safe bet that every time Audi introduced a new part number for the 016 it was to accomodate a different gear ratio or to strengthen the transaxle, or both. That has certainly been the case with the 01E.
 
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