Racing a GT40, Superformance, Vintage

CliffBeer

CURRENTLY BANNED
Just wondering if anyone has had their Superformance GT40 certified for local vintage racing in their area. To be precise, in those areas where the local vintage racing group requires that cars be a) of a certain age (typically 30+ years old), and b) original (not a kit car), have Superformance owners been successful in getting their cars qualified and entered into vintage races?

Thanks in advance.
 

CliffBeer

CURRENTLY BANNED
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

I pose this question as it seems quite clear that my CAV is not eligible for vintage racing in Seattle with the local group. And, my car is actually registered as a 1966 Ford Mk I. Would be fun to tear it up with the 906's, Ferraris and Lotuses at our local track here. From my preliminary inquiries I can tell already that a GT40 replica is viewed by the vintage snobs in the same light as a VW based Lamborghini, unfortunately.
 
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

Cliff, the rules vary by sanctioning body and politics plays a role no doubt,but I can see their point when trying to keep a level playing field and the sport pure. SVRA requires the car to have a race history, HSR is more lenient. The SPF might squeek in on HSR. chuck
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

There are folks on the forum that can probably answer your question much better than I and they could probably go into a lot of detail. I've looked into racing of replicas a bit since I wish to race the Lola. But, I think we want to take the Lola into a modern sanctioned class with a specific race goal in mind, therefore we'll probably try to set it up for SCCA SPO if/when the time comes (and it could be setup in NASA, more on that later).

I think Chuck said it succinctly. From what I understand having a vintage log book for your car doesn't necessarily depend directly on your car and what your car did. It might depend instead on who you know in the vintage racing association, how well connected you are, and the desire of the body and members wanting your car on track with them. For various reasons there are cars with vintage log books that are not original cars and are raced.

The Superformance GT40 replica is, as I understand it, to be viewed as a continuation car due to the unparalleled accuracy of the reproduction. It is to have FIA recognition and that would allow it to get a historical logbook with no trouble. It isn't clear to me but I think that the SPF with FIA recognition is not the standard one you can buy right now, but it is a race version that SPF has not built yet and is to be quite a bit more pricey than the standard version. I have asked a couple of dealers this question, but I didn't get a response from either of the ones I asked.

So, if you wish to race your CAV GT40 the most direct path might be to set it up in a NASA class. NASA has (I still think they do) KC1-5 classes. These are Kit Car classes where the 1 after the KC indicates the starting digit of the horsepower level of your car. So, they handle over 500 hp replicas/kit cars in these classes. Also, you can get licensed to race in NASA in an afternoon by taking one of their HPDE schools the weekend of the race. Naturally, you'll need all the required safety gear etc. but the NASA rules are not typically as strict and confining as SCCA. But, NASA has so many classes at their events that many times there might be only 2-3 cars running around in a class. I have no idea how subscribed the KC classes are.

Another route to race the CAV is to take the car into SCCA racing. Here it looks to me the best class to put it in would be SPO, Super Production Over. In fact, this is what a FFR Daytona Coupe races in so it is possible. The problem for a GT40 racing in this class will be the cage rules and fuel cell rules. An SPO cage in a GT40 could be done but it'd be really tight. Not sure if the stainless mono would pose an issue to welding a cage, but the cage can also be mounted with proper load plates and bolts (actually, need to check is stainless is allowed as sometimes the rules state metal allowed in chassis construction). The fuel cell rules in the class pose the biggest issue and just about make it impossible to use sponson tanks. The cells need to be of a certain construction, filled with foam, and need to have a metal bulkhead between the outside of the cell and the driver. So, on the sponson cells you'd need to get a bulkhead between each side and you. On the Lola I think we'll lick that issue by making a cell that will precisely fit into the passenger area (sans seat) and then wall the entire area off with 1/4" aluminum. You could do the same, or use a small fuel cell located in the spare tire area (saw someone's RCR fitted like this).

There are some other threads on racing replicas/kit cars, and while not CAV specific maybe they will help. I finally got into racing in early 2004, got my SCCA competition license, and have really enjoyed racing. If you don't do that already you might wish to give it a try, it is fantastic. Some of the folks replying to the threads below are avaid historical, NASA, SCCA racers and could probably help a lot more.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/racetrack/19015-what-historic-racing-class-gt40.html

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/racetrack/16370-any-40-racing-states.html

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/all-gt40/13052-gt40-race-classification-us.html

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/worldwide-gt40-events/16471-continental-historic-racing-association.html
 

Ron McCall

Supporter
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

Ron: Do you know what the cage and fuel cell rules are for NASA KC1-5 classes?
 
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

Lee Moody was at VIR and said that his cars (not just built like the originals, but built in exactly the same manner with the same machinery and tooling as the originals) were considered original cars by virtually eveyone. He also quated me a price of $800,000 - at which point I felt like an idiot for wasting his time.
I would think he would trump Superformance, who has made a close replica, but it is still a replica.

Do the Shelby continuation Cobras qualify for vintage events? I would think they would be similar to the SP GT40's. And it is equally as silly to me - as they are no more "vintage".

The guys that buy an old car and take the time to get it right deserve something special if you ask me. That's a different world, really. This is just my lame opinion...
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

Hi Ron,

I don't know about KC specs, but maybe the NASA rulebook has the stuff you need.

I'm about 90% certain we can go SPO on the Lola and get a regular logbook that we can use the thing to race all year long if we want, and race in the enduro. The cage rules will need comply with Production (has nothing to do with production automobiles, anymore), as will the fuel system and fire system. Very much doable, the only thing that requires creative thinking is the fuel system. None of the replicas would pass SPO requirements because you'll need a double bulkhead between the fuel and the driver, sponson tanks won't do it.

I'm going to get out cage builder out to have a look at the tub and see what he can do. Jeff just informed me that even if I don't race it in SCCA I might as well cage it since BMW and Porsche for their track days now require at a minimum good roll bars for the open top cars. I figure if I'm going to go to the trouble to do a good roll bar I might as well cage the thing up and be extremely safe for the track days. A good Production style cage with the rear hoop, front hoop, foot bars, NASCAR side bars, and other good bits and pieces like a removable petty bar will run around $2000 to have done, but it'll be worth it.

Safety isn't something to do just to meet the letter of a rule, i.e., rollbar because they say you have to have one. I wouldn't consider tracking a Miata, Z3, Z4 or other "low performance" car without a cage, shouldn't think of doing something like a Lola or GT40 without some good protection.

Ron
 

CliffBeer

CURRENTLY BANNED
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

Ron Earp said:
There are folks on the forum that can probably answer your question much better than I and they could probably go into a lot of detail. I've looked into racing of replicas a bit since I wish to race the Lola. But, I think we want to take the Lola into a modern sanctioned class with a specific race goal in mind, therefore we'll probably try to set it up for SCCA SPO if/when the time comes (and it could be setup in NASA, more on that later).

I think Chuck said it succinctly. From what I understand having a vintage log book for your car doesn't necessarily depend directly on your car and what your car did. It might depend instead on who you know in the vintage racing association, how well connected you are, and the desire of the body and members wanting your car on track with them. For various reasons there are cars with vintage log books that are not original cars and are raced.

The Superformance GT40 replica is, as I understand it, to be viewed as a continuation car due to the unparalleled accuracy of the reproduction. It is to have FIA recognition and that would allow it to get a historical logbook with no trouble. It isn't clear to me but I think that the SPF with FIA recognition is not the standard one you can buy right now, but it is a race version that SPF has not built yet. I have asked a couple of dealers this question, but I didn't get a response from either of the ones I asked.

So, if you wish to race your CAV GT40 the most direct path might be to set it up in a NASA class. NASA has (I still think they do) KC1-5 classes. These are Kit Car classes where the 1 after the KC indicates the starting digit of the horsepower level of your car. So, they handle over 500 hp replicas/kit cars in these classes. Also, you can get licensed to race in NASA in an afternoon by taking one of their HPDE schools the weekend of the race. Naturally, you'll need all the required safety gear etc. but the NASA rules are not typically as strict and confining as SCCA. But, NASA has so many classes at their events that many times there might be only 2-3 cars running around in a class. I have no idea how subscribed the KC classes are.

Another route to race the CAV is to take the car into SCCA racing. Here it looks to me the best class to put it in would be SPO, Super Production Over. In fact, this is what a FFR Daytona Coupe races in so it is possible. The problem for a GT40 racing in this class will be the cage rules and fuel cell rules. An SPO cage in a GT40 could be done but it'd be really tight. Not sure if the stainless mono would pose an issue to welding a cage, but the cage can also be mounted with proper load plates and bolts (actually, need to check is stainless is allowed as sometimes the rules state metal allowed in chassis construction). The fuel cell rules in the class pose the biggest issue and just about make it impossible to use sponson tanks. The cells need to be of a certain construction, filled with foam, and need to have a metal bulkhead between the outside of the cell and the driver. So, on the sponson cells you'd need to get a bulkhead between each side and you. On the Lola I think we'll lick that issue by making a cell that will precisely fit into the passenger area (sans seat) and then wall the entire area off with 1/4" aluminum. You could do the same, or use a small fuel cell located in the spare tire area (saw someone's RCR fitted like this).

There are some other threads on racing replicas/kit cars, and while not CAV specific maybe they will help. I finally got into racing in early 2004, got my SCCA competition license, and have really enjoyed racing. If you don't do that already you might wish to give it a try, it is fantastic. Some of the folks replying to the threads below are avaid historical, NASA, SCCA racers and could probably help a lot more.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/racetrack/19015-what-historic-racing-class-gt40.html

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/racetrack/16370-any-40-racing-states.html

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/all-gt40/13052-gt40-race-classification-us.html

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/worldwide-gt40-events/16471-continental-historic-racing-association.html


Hi Ron,

Thanks, that's really helpful information. You obviously know what you're speaking of, and, sounds like your knowledge is based upon first-hand experience with the issues. My limited experience doesn't allow me to add much at all, however, I understand and agree with what you're indicating.

Here's a lame thought: what about track days with the various marques? I'm guessing my CAV could run with the porsche club as-is. The CAVs do have a roll bar of sorts integral to the roof structure. It actually looks pretty beefy. I suspect the car could go on its lid and that bar would probably hold up provided it's a vanilla-type club track day accident. In my experience club track day accidents are mostly sub 70mph and a matter of sliding off into some grass. In 20 or so track days (alfa, porsche, ferrari clubs) I've only seen one roll and it was pretty gentle. I know it's not wise to gamble with your noggin, regardless.

The local alfa club is pretty lax here in Seattle - no roll bar required for open top cars at present. So long as your wheel bearings aren't totally shot they'll generally let you run. I'm sure I can give myself a little thrill hanging with those guys on the track (and smoke any alfa out there) so that may be a start for a little track time. My car will undoubtedly need a bunch of tweeking to the suspension setup so some low-key track time would be appropriate.

I realize you're very far along the learning curve of amateur racing. I'm just getting started so mucking around with local marque clubs may be a reasonable first step.

Thanks again for the info - very helpful!

Cliff
 
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

superformance gt40 a continuation car? due to "unparalled accuracy"?FIA recognition? Real vintage racing?You guys are dreaming.Jerry McGlothin
 

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

Tons of clubs will let you run with them on most of the Open track events, just give them a call. Don't know much about the sanctioned racing, but for the club events they are generally open and welcome the cars. Just take a look at your local tracks event schedule and get in contact with any that sound good. Most only need reasonable safety equitpment, likle metal mounted fire extinguisher, curent snell helmet, etc, and a safe car of course...


Sandy
 

Ron Earp

Admin
Re: Superformance and vintage racing...

jerrymcglothin said:
superformance gt40 a continuation car? due to "unparalled accuracy"?FIA recognition? Real vintage racing?You guys are dreaming.Jerry McGlothin
Hi Jerry,

don't shoot the messenger - I'm just indicating what information was leaked out from SPF in the past year about the car in the press and on this forum. Like I said, I don't know what the score is with that car or Vintage racing with it - I am not a Vintage racer, don't own a SPF, and the SPF dealers did not respond on that question. It has been stated by the dealers and Safir that the car is viewed as a contnuation type car though I have no idea what this means for the car or vintage racing.

Cliff, Sandy is right on with the track days. Two I've run with before are the BMW Club and the Porsche Club. You should have no trouble running with these groups following their rules but it isn't racing and isn't meant to be. It is a lot of fun and a great way to figure out of racing is in your future.

Ron
 
Re: Racing a GT40, Suprformance, Vintage

When I tried to race my 289 Kirkham in a vintage race in Tulsa the question was pretty basic. "How old is it?" My car is about as close as you can get to the original car. Even the lucas wiring!boomsmile

In the end, they would not let me run regardles of how accurate the build was. It was still a new car.

Thats just my first hand experience. Good luck to you guys.
 

Sandy

Gulf GT40
Lifetime Supporter
Re: Racing a GT40, Suprformance, Vintage

I had some dealings with the tech folks at VARA when I had finished up my 65 Mustang a few years back. It was done in a way that would not meet up with the spec's of the era, i.e., I had 4 wheel large disc's, different suspension, non-legal motor, etc. BUT they said that I would be welcome to run in the events, but could not compete for points. They were OK as long a they saw progress in removal of the offending parts. So now I just have fun at the track with the clubs and if I did want to do some racing I would likely jump into NASA, less stuffy then HMSA/VARA folks, and not so much a 'who you know club' IMO.

Sandy
 
Cliff,

If you are looking for a low-key group to race with in the Northwest, I'd recommend the International Conference of Sports Car Clubs (ICSCC, aka "Conference"). Conference puts on races at Seattle, Portland, Spokane, British Columbia, and sometimes other places like Thunderhill. I've been racing with conference for 17 years. They are a good group. The safety rules are fairly strict--similar to SCCA, but the atmosphere is more relaxed, and the races are more efficiently run than the local SCCA races. SCCA classes are recognized at Conference events (I race in ITA--International Touring A--a low-buck production car class with lots of close competition) and there are some conference-specific classes as sell. Like Ron says, a GT40 kit is probably most appropriate for SPO. If I was building a car that I wanted to race, however, I'd take a look at the rules for GT1. GT is more restrictive than the SP classes, but you might have more opportunities to race in multiple groups.

Speaking about racing in general...unless you have experience with real racing (NOT track days) I would recommend getting a taste for it before committing a GT40 build to race car rules. One of the best ways is to buy a cheap production-based race car and run the Conference novice program. You'll pay less for the car and the racing than it would cost to modify a GT40 for racing, and you'll gain more driving skill more safely in a low-powered car. And you can sell the car when you are done.

If all you want to do is take the GT40 on the track and fart around, a track day is a better choice, and there are basically no rules. It isn't a racing experience however, and there are all skill levels at track days. (Read: "The more car than skill crowd sometimes shows up.")

Personaly, my ERA will not be set up as a race car, and I plan to continue to race my Corolla GT-S. This is because racing a car competitively basically means that you must be willing to destroy the car. Bad stuff can and does happen. I'd rather that happend in a relatively slow, cheap car.

Some guys don't have the ego to race a small car, but there is more competition and fewer mechanical problems in the smaller production car classes. In my last race, there were 5 cars entered in SPO, 4 didn't start the race, the lone starter didn't finish. GT1 had 7 starters, 3 finishers, and a 4th finisher that was DQ'd. ITA, however, had 21 starters and 20 finishers. I finished 6th, and the guy that finished second had a fastest lap only 0.34 seconds faster than me. The cars in SP are really cool, but the racing is much better in IT.

ICSCC:
International Conference of Sports Car Clubs

ICSCC Portland Race Results:
http://www.icscc.com/results/sept24_06/Sept24_2006_Race.pdf

Garrett
 

Howard Jones

Supporter
Garrett. I'm gonna print that and have it laminated. Then I am gonna put it in my tool box that I take with me to track days for ego control. Best damn advice I've heard in years.

Howard "fart'in around" Jones
 

CliffBeer

CURRENTLY BANNED
garrettc said:
Cliff,

If you are looking for a low-key group to race with in the Northwest, I'd recommend the International Conference of Sports Car Clubs (ICSCC, aka "Conference"). Conference puts on races at Seattle, Portland, Spokane, British Columbia, and sometimes other places like Thunderhill. I've been racing with conference for 17 years. They are a good group. The safety rules are fairly strict--similar to SCCA, but the atmosphere is more relaxed, and the races are more efficiently run than the local SCCA races. SCCA classes are recognized at Conference events (I race in ITA--International Touring A--a low-buck production car class with lots of close competition) and there are some conference-specific classes as sell. Like Ron says, a GT40 kit is probably most appropriate for SPO. If I was building a car that I wanted to race, however, I'd take a look at the rules for GT1. GT is more restrictive than the SP classes, but you might have more opportunities to race in multiple groups.

Speaking about racing in general...unless you have experience with real racing (NOT track days) I would recommend getting a taste for it before committing a GT40 build to race car rules. One of the best ways is to buy a cheap production-based race car and run the Conference novice program. You'll pay less for the car and the racing than it would cost to modify a GT40 for racing, and you'll gain more driving skill more safely in a low-powered car. And you can sell the car when you are done.

If all you want to do is take the GT40 on the track and fart around, a track day is a better choice, and there are basically no rules. It isn't a racing experience however, and there are all skill levels at track days. (Read: "The more car than skill crowd sometimes shows up.")

Personaly, my ERA will not be set up as a race car, and I plan to continue to race my Corolla GT-S. This is because racing a car competitively basically means that you must be willing to destroy the car. Bad stuff can and does happen. I'd rather that happend in a relatively slow, cheap car.

Some guys don't have the ego to race a small car, but there is more competition and fewer mechanical problems in the smaller production car classes. In my last race, there were 5 cars entered in SPO, 4 didn't start the race, the lone starter didn't finish. GT1 had 7 starters, 3 finishers, and a 4th finisher that was DQ'd. ITA, however, had 21 starters and 20 finishers. I finished 6th, and the guy that finished second had a fastest lap only 0.34 seconds faster than me. The cars in SP are really cool, but the racing is much better in IT.

ICSCC:
International Conference of Sports Car Clubs

ICSCC Portland Race Results:
http://www.icscc.com/results/sept24_06/Sept24_2006_Race.pdf

Garrett

Garrett,

Thank you, that's great information. Very helpful. I'll think about the possibility of some class racing with a less expensive car - I agree that makes sense. I'm thinking an old Alfa Giulia or Triumph may be my speed in this regard and I can probably find one already set up for one of the classes.

For the moment I'll probably just fart around with a few track days with one of the local clubs (Alfa is good). I'll certainly get a thrill out of 130+ down the straight at SIR. Heck, my old 911 would do 130 down that straight.

Even some lowly track days will help me get a feel for the GT40 at speed, and, perhaps work out a suspension bug or two.

Thank you again!
 
Cliff and Howard,

I didn't mean to disparage track days. Track days are a easy/fun way to get a feel for a car at speed, and I actually plan to do some farting around at the odd track day in the GT40. But track days shouldn't be confused with racing.

Cliff, SIR (now Pacific Raceways) is a great track. I love the challenge of 5a/5b and all the trees are beautiful. I wish I could have seen it when Can-Am was there!

Garrett
 

Ross Nicol

GT40s Supporter
We had a discussion about wheel to wheel racing and timed sprints on another thread not long ago.Can't remember which one though.Too lazy to search.
Ross
 
Back
Top