GT40 English or American

I dont know if this is the place to lodge this thread,however Id like to ask a Question and open a debate on wether the GT40 is American or British?

If I can put my point in the car was created in England but financed by American Ford.
Was the only input to the car the engine?

So who claimes the origine?

English Ford has had great performance cars expecially in the 60s through to the 80s one car id like to mention is the RS200 .

My last point is English Ford has never got the recognition they deserve.
 

Dave Wood

Lifetime Supporter
First let me say I hae laways loved the Brit performance Fords. I used to maintain some early Cortina GTs and early Lotus's with the english Ford bottom end.
Credit for the GT40 it is probably, as your sentiments might indicate, dependent on which side of the pond you reside. The basic car was conceived by Broadley/Lola, but I doubt that it would have become the world class car that it did under their tutelage alone. Ford didn't just supply $$$( and a lot)they also supplied engineers and computers( new stuff then) to analyze and improve the beast. Personally I think the largest credit for it's success resides with Ford...and HII's grudge against Enzo.
Lola would have probably kept the Lucas electrics and the car would have been a footnote in early 60s racing history. Lucas electrics ...come on...even the British have to acknowledge their "erratic" performance.:)
 
I agree Lucas has a lot to answer for, did american Ford use Lucas as well? so wasnt English Ford compelled to use Lucas or am i Wrong.One thing with British cars the electrics were always on the dodgy side.

Can i also mention the F1 Ford motor in the 60s still cosiderd one of the best V8s ever made.

I also lke to mention english engineers had some great initiative in introducing new ideas but never seemed to finish them to make it reliable untill the Japs got hold of the concept.Just lift up he bonnet youll see what i mean. The engine bays never looked finished.
 
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Pat

Supporter
I think it is fair to say it is an Ango-American team effort. You had engineering design work done on both sides of the pond, the initial Roy Lunn concept Mustang I in 1962 (the resemblance to the GT40 is striking) and that was the germination of the car's mid engined thinking. Fruition came from LOLA with the design implementaion with Lunn, Broadley and John Wyer. (Lunn was an Englishman who moved to Detroit in 1958 and I believe doesn't get the credit he deserves.) Initial fabrication was Abbey Panels in Coventry with refinement by the great English legend Ken Miles. Carroll Shelby later turned it into a winner. So in my opinion, it was truly the first "world car" as we know the concept today.

Just my view.
 

Ian Anderson

Lifetime Supporter
Simple answer
British car.

If it were American they(the manufacturers) would have put the steering wheel on the wrong side (Left)


Now ask the question who's engine - American
Or ask which race team got the most out of the set up - Shelby American
Then there was the Gulf Oil money so presumably Texan


But back to your original question the car is undoubtly British but as Veek says added to by numerous others from around the globe.



Ian
 

Pat

Supporter
If it were American they(the manufacturers) would have put the steering wheel on the wrong side (Left)

I think the track layout of LeMans determined the steering side. Porsche protos had right side steering as well.
 
Don't forget the German ZF transaxle. If the GT40 had stuck with the Coletti, it would've never done better than DNF.

Actually Mark, the Collotti was quite reliable once Shelby took over the operation & the gears + R & P were updated with parts made by Ford, plus drivers 'taught' to adopt a more careful shift technique. First Daytona & Sebring wins were both acheived with the Collotti. Was not until racing in Europe began and the lack of a 5th gear proved a handicap that ZF was brought into play.
 
Actually, the Coletti was a stop-gap measure, and the car was supposed to have the ZF almost from the outset. Miscommunication between Ford and ZF and the failure to transfer funds in a timely manner delayed the project by nine months (!) if my memory is correct.

Ford contracted with ZF to design and build the gearbox from scratch specifically for the GT40. They didn't simply adapt an existing unit for their purposes. Ford said, "We want this", and ZF said, "Okay". But ZF wasn't going to start work until they got paid, and Ford wasn't going to pay until the work was done. So everybody sat around looking at each other while the Coletti gearboxes ate differentials like popcorn. :confused:

Oh, and in answer to an earlier query--no self-respecting American car (Ford or otherwise) would use anything Lucas. All North American-made Ford (and other) products use electrics designed and built in North America. Lucas was strictly used in the various Euro cars (primarily British, but also a smattering of Italian cars), whereas German cars normally use Bosch, and who cares what the French cars used. :laugh:

And finally, the GT40 engines were solely an American effort (for better or for worse--it took years for them to figure out how to keep the small-block motors together, as they had a bad habit of blowing head gaskets). Conversely, the Ford DFV F-1 motor was a 100% British effort, and a brilliant one at that.
 
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-begone:) No doubt I will feel the wrath of Mr Hamilton for that!!!
 

JimmyMac

Lifetime Supporter
Like the car, Roy Lunn was born British and ended up an American.
Did he not take US citizenship ?
 
Gents:
The concept, the shape, and the overall fabrication of the original cars were definitely ahead of their time. and I credit the Brits for a first class job.
While it is true that Ford had a hand in the car, I think this was Henry Ford Jr's obsession with beating Ferrari, and he put his full backing behind the project, and brought Carrol Shelby in to accomplish that goal. Big money and big engines became the norm, hence the MK II, and later the MK IV. Ford could have accomplished his goal by funding the British effort, but I feel he saw the project as a opportunity to flex his muscles, and got results through cubic inches and big dollars.
When ford won LeMans in 1967, and the rules changed on displacement limits he bailed out.
For me the ultimate cars were created by JW engineering (John Wyer and John Wilment), who created an updated race car that used the updated tires,brakes, body work, etc. and won LeMans two more times, Lucas electrics and all . I think this was what made the GT 40 the ultimate race car at the time. Of course Ford took credit for these wins, but IMHO the Brits made it happen.
If it wasn't for the vision of men like John Wyer it would never have happened that way.
Just my 2c
Phil
 
As an aside....

I've just reread John Allen's book "Le Mans Porsche". He quotes some intersting stats re the number of wins, starts etc for various cars. The GT40's and Mirages between them made 40 starts at Le Mans. How ironic the number?

Cheers

Fred W B
 

Jim Rosenthal

Supporter
Can anyone contribute anything on Len Bailey, who as I understand it was responsible for the look of the GT40 LeMans nose and some other bits? Also, I think it was he who redesigned the tub so that it was simpler to build when the Mark V cars were built by Safir Ltd. I'd welcome any other information. What else did Len Bailey design, was he American or British, etc.
 
Nope Best of British

Leonard Bailey became an apprentice at Austin at Longbridge in 1942 which at that time were building Short Stirling for the Royal Air Force of World War II Building up his experience at Daimler and Rover in Coventry before moving back to Austin which became part of British Motor Corporation (BMC) in 1952 to work in the engine department. He moved to the USA and by mid 1956 was working at American Motors working on that companies first in house V8 after a deal to buy Packard V8 became too expensive. In 1958 he move to Ford head office at Dearborn Michigan working in their engine department but was moved to the Experimental Department by Roy Lunn. He worked on prototypes under him including the development of Ford turbine cars and he was part of the design team that built a two-seat Ford Mustang I in 1962
With Ford taking a more pro active motor spot stance in 1963 he was moved back to England to a position of chief draftsman as part of the design team for Fords new GT40 sport car with Ford Advanced Vehicles Ltd FAV department in Slough. Lola had completed a Ford-powered, mid-engined sports car in 1963 this would form the basis for the Ford assault on winning Le-Mans, the new project was to be based at FAV . They would have responsible for the engineering of the chassis, body and construction of the cars. Eric Broadley was initially responsible for the overall design, but Len Bailey later took care of the chassis reengineering it from Aluminum to Steel for more durability in the 24 hour Race. Ford felt it was also necessary to cope with the added weight of the more powerful all aluminum, dry-sump Ford Fairlane . By 1966 he was based at Alan Mann Racing base in Byfleet Surry although still employed by Ford of Europe. Early in 1966 several chassis were shipped to United States to be fitted with the larger, more powerful engine in preparation for Fords third attempt at taking that elusive Le Mans win. These seven litre cars are we now referred to as Mark IIs No fewer than eight GT40 Mark IIs were race prepared for the 1966 24 Hours of Le Mans. Although entered by three different privateer teams All Factory Ferraris had retired by 17 hours of the race, as had nine of the Fords, but three held together long enough to score an historic photo staged 1-2-3 finish

For 1967 Ford USA decided to concentrate its resources on a second Le-Mans win they fielded the GT40 Mk IV, a newer car redesigned in the USA with a different chassis and a different body Bailey redesigned the two GT40s entered by John Wyer of JW Automotive for the manufacturer’s championship These were lightweight variations of the GT40 slimmer windscreen and roof line, cut off tail, and lighter aluminum body panels. Entered as the Mirage M1 with Gulf Oil sponsorship. Ford left the Mirages and Privateer GT-40’s to represent them in the intervening championship events at Monza, Spa,Targa Florio and Nurburgring.

In late 1966 he completed the design of The Honker II a 1967 Can Am car, built by Alan Mann Racing, and run by Holman Moody. (It was named after John Holman, who liked to use the air horns on the big-rig trucks he drove). Powered came from an injected 351 cubic inch engine for its First Race at Bridgehampton New York where it qualified 17th and finished 8th and a 377 cubic inch for Mosport Ontario where it qualifued 17th but didn't start painted metallic it never raced again.

For The 1968 the FIA redrew the rules for championship sports car racing. Engine capacity was limited to 3 litres for prototype Group 6 sports class, Bailey was charged by Ford Europe to create a car for this championship resulting in the Ford P68 of 1968 redesigned the P69 for 1969 built and run by Alan Mann Racing
 
I would agree that the Mk.IIA had a British sourced chassis (reasonably heavily modified in the USA) but was fitted with USA sourced parts. The rear lights were Chevy (why I have no idea), gauges were Stewart Warner and Jones, the engine was a 427 Side Oiler FE (I think they had to wait until 1967 to get the all ali version though as I am pretty sure the 1966 cars were iron blocked but with ali heads and intake) + of course an American T44 gearbox (the ZF doing a pretzel impression behind the FE).

By the time the Mk.IIB came along even the Girling brakes were history with Kelsey Heyes taking over. The Mk.IV - 100% American but still a right hooker - I think only the reason it raced in Sports Prototype let it be called a GT40 (and a liberal rule interpretation).

Just my 2 pence worth.

Cheers

Craig
 
I have just watched a show where some Americans were in France admiring the Eiffel Tower. One said to the other (paraphrased) "It's just like the one in Las Vegas only the Vegas one is bigger".
I suspect the GT40 has a similar story. ;) :)

I'm surprised Shelby hasn't claimed credit (and royalties) for the Christmas "Carrol".

I vote English. ;)

Tim.
 
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