Anyone have a F5000 car?

I'd like to do some fast open track days but I don't really want to beat on my GT40 too much - the transaxle certainly won't take it and it's much too nice a car to risk trading some paint with a Camaro or a TR6. So, I'm looking at other possibilities and considering either a) an old F5000 car, or b) an old Indy car. I've seen a few F5000s that are a bit tired and worn for $75-100K but nevertheless complete and decent runners. The less expensive option is an Indy roller which is about $25,000 and complete (including hewland) in which I would mate up a stroked SBF (331).

My concern with the F5000 car is that most have some historical value, so, stuffing it into the armco with my amateurish style might be a bit of a crime. My concern with the Indy car is that it's a circle track car that might not set up well for the twisties - it appears symmetrical in all respects and the suspension looks quite adjustable but I know absolutely nothing about old Indy cars.

The main appeal to both routes is a) I think I can drive at about 7/10ths and scare the crap out of myself but not be on the hairy edge risking life/limb, b) probably pass just about anything else out there pretty easily, and c) engine and transaxle isn't going to cost an arm and a leg to maintain.

Any thoughts or advice is much appreciated!

YouTube - Philliip Island Historics 2007 F5000

Cliff
We are having one of the largest feild of F5000 cars here in January, at last count their is 47 so it will be humming. The meeting is all about the memory of Bruce Mclaren and there is also some 160 overseas entries. I will post some photo`s then.
Cheers

Don't know about Indy cars but the achilles heel of the F5000 IS the trans. So you're no further ahead..... The DG300 was originally designed to go behind the 3 litre DFV Cosworth. It is very much on the ragged edge handling the torque of the F5000 and by all accounts needs frequent rebuilds. F5000's are not cheap to run.... Here in NZ I believe most guys budget about $5000 per meeting for routine running costs and that is only if there are no major dramas.

I never questioned them where the money was spent, but an F5000 is a fairly frail machine, nothing is built heavier than it has to be to give a modicum of reliability and I am sure there are numerous items needing replacement at predetermined intervals. I can't see an Indy car being much different in that respect either.

Someone may have more detailed info, this is just what I have gleaned in conversation with various drivers and crew. Could it be done cheaper, if you weren't driving on the limit? I don't know....

Would you want to risk utilising a reduced maintenance schedule? It could possibly be done subject to constant strip downs and close inspection, along with crack testing of strategic components.

Remember too, that if you are not driving it on the limit, the tyres will be too cold, thus it will have no grip and it will feel absolutely terrible......

IMHO, FWIW....If you really want to have reliable fun, try an old Formula Ford. Relatively cheap to buy, run and maintain. A great drivers car and spaceframe design so if you bend it it's simple to fix! You will have a ball exploring it's limits.

With a V8 grunter anyone can blat down the straight, (ask me how I know! LOL) if you want to do that buy a drag car........ It's mastering the turns that is the real challenge and for that a F Ford would be a most satisfying and relatively inexpensive introduction. They are slow enough that you're not risking life or limb, but they don't seem slow from the drivers seat! Plus it will still lap faster than your GT40 ever would!

Maybe you need this, as discussed in the ZFQ transaxle thread? I cut and paste the info below

Website is F1-67 - Stuart Taylor Motorsport - Chevy Powered Period 1960's Race Car - The F1-67


Cheers

Fred W B


Hi guys

here is a totally new car available in 09 at around $65,000 features the ZFQ and LS3 powertrain.

Regards

Chris.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->




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This car will be on display at next weeks Autosport show at Birmingham.

Ian Gray
Stuart Taylor Ltd
Spring Farm
50 Berryhedge Lane
Winshill
Burton On Trent
DE15 0DP

Tel <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = SKYPE /><SKYPE:SPAN id=softomate_v3_highlight_0 class=skype_v3_tb_injection title=Call this phone number in United Kingdom with Skype: +447836629106 skypeid="0" skypeaction="call" nof="" isfax="" freecall="" fwidth="" type=".flex" path="file://E:/DOCUME~1/user/LOCALS~1/Temp/__SkypeIEToolbar_Cache/699cd66a1ff9095bd9058eb9cbe72385/static/" durex2="%DADDYHEIGHT%" durex="%DADDYWIDTH%" context="+44 (0)7836629106" mode=".modern"><SKYPE:SPAN id=skype_v3_tb_nop0 class=skype_v3_tb_nop></SKYPE:SPAN><SKYPE:SPAN id=skype_v3_tb_droppart_0 class=skype_v3_tb_imgA_flex title="Skype actions" skypeid="0" skypeaction="drop" skypesms="1"><SKYPE:SPAN style="BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(file://E:/DOCUME~1/user/LOCALS~1/Temp/__SkypeIEToolbar_Cache/699cd66a1ff9095bd9058eb9cbe72385/static/famfamfam/GB.gif)" id=skype_v3_tb_img_f0 class=skype_v3_tb_imgFlag></SKYPE:SPAN><SKYPE:SPAN class=skype_v3_tb_nop></SKYPE:SPAN></SKYPE:SPAN><SKYPE:SPAN id=skype_v3_tb_img_s0 class=skype_v3_tb_imgS></SKYPE:SPAN><SKYPE:SPAN id=skype_v3_tb_text0 class=skype_v3_tb_injectionIn><SKYPE:SPAN id=skype_v3_tb_innerText0 class=skype_v3_tb_innerText>+44 (0)7836629106 </SKYPE:SPAN></SKYPE:SPAN><SKYPE:SPAN id=skype_v3_tb_img_r0 class=skype_v3_tb_imgR><SKYPE:SPAN class=skype_v3_tb_nop></SKYPE:SPAN></SKYPE:SPAN></SKYPE:SPAN><SKYPE:SPAN id=softomate_v3_print_0 class=skype_v3_tb_injection_print context="">+44 (0)7836629106</SKYPE:SPAN>

If anyone else wants info on this car please don't dilute this thread please start a new thread in the paddock area.
I must say that this F1-67 would be fantastic to drive on a track, take you back to when men were men and F1 cars had gear sticks.

Regards

Chris

PS. if you phone Ian please tell him were you got the info.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->



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F5000 would be a cool car to have for track days!

Are you specifically only interested in vintage race cars or can modern race cars fit the bill too?

If vintage only, and you have interest, maybe an old NASCAR is about as cheap as you can get. Drop the rev limit 1000 RPM and drive it til it needs tires and gas, repeat, and have lots of yee haw fun.

Obviously with modern SCCA/NASA cars you've got lots and lots of choices.

Cliff,
You had better check out the organization you plan to do the track days with,as some do not allow open wheel cars to intermix with big sedans( any altercation between the twp different cars will be a great example of physics). Next, the $25k "roller" Indy chassis will end up being $60 to $80k by the time you put guts in the trans, rebuild the suspension(also remember these cars were stripped and crack checked after every race due to the very thin,highly stressed chro-mo tube used for suspension),put a powerplant in and almost as expensive as en engine is the electronics and harnesses for it.
Check out this websight:

Cars

This can give you some insight at to what it takes to find,buy,rebuild and vintage race a mid to late Indycar( the same year chassis I think you are looking at for $25k at Can Am Cars). This guy also goes into detail of what a ground effect car is like to drive properly. He also STRONGLY advises against trying to use such a car for an "open track toy" due to it's inherent high strung nature.
What is your experience level for track driving? I went from tracking street car based toys to racing a Spec Miata,then also wanted something a little more "hardcore" to open track with. So I bought and restored an old IMSA GTU car and powered it with a modern FI LS6. Even though the engine is now low maintenence, the rest of the car is not. There is constant fiddling,adjusting and maintenence to to during the day at the track and more to do when you bring it home. These are still racecars,which means they will always need constant attention.
Right now with the economy the way it is,there are plenty of toys for the track to choose from for sale at firesale prices! From E36 BMWs(which are FUN to drive at track prepped levels),C5 Vettes,Lotus Exige/Elise to the aformentioned Formula Ford(later examples to be had with the FI Zetec engine)and C/DSR& S2000 cars.
Sorry for the long-winded reply,but I was just in the same position a few years ago,and I'm not sure I would do things the same way now(the whole hindsight is 20/20 thing).

Dave D.

Cliff,
I have a friend in Ohio redoing a Gurney Eagle, I don't know if it's for sale. The early 80's Indy cars are around. I think one of Mario's old cars(Lola) is for sale on e-bay now less engine. They ran the older Ilmor 265 Chevy power plant's and ran on alcool. They can be converted to gas, get your check book out. The chassis is resonable but the power plant expensive. Lot's of carbon fiber to maintain also. You should try these sites. Chevron did B24 B28 and B30 F5000 chassis that were pretty compedative.
Dave
www.race-cars.com
www.racecarsdirect.com

Hi Cliff, you might find this site interesting, The Formula 5000 Registry

Cliff

I do have a Formula 5000, a 1969 McLaren M10 A, chassis # 07.
I agree with most of the comments said above... race cars are race cars, and they are expensive to run, you have to pay constant attention to them, rebuilds.... if you want to play safe.

On the other hand, I think I would feel better if I have to repair or rebuild a modern replica after track days and accidents, than if I have to rebuild one of the only 17 chassis built by McLaren/Trojan in 1969.
And rebuilding the replica would be cheaper for sure than rebuilding any of those historic formula cars.

As Dave stated above there are plenty of possibilities these days out there to get a sexy car at a very good price. On top of that, running costs for those vehicles will have nothing to do with the expense of running any racing car.

Hope this helps

Cheers!

JP

Hi Cliff,
Why don't you run an SL-C or an Ultima? These will fit the bill of being fast enough to scare you but inexpensive enough to actually run it hard. Just my $.02 It would be very sad to ruin any historic irreplaceable race car just playing around.

Steve

Thank you gentlemen, that's very helpful information. I'm smart enough to know what I don't know, but dumb enough to try a few things where I'm out of my element whilst trying not to put myself (or others!) at risk of injury.

I really appreciate the comments and suggestions and informational links - that helps alot. I'll go through some of the linked data and come back with a thoughtful response. Just off the top of my head at the moment here's a few thoughts:

1. I'm not looking to get into strictly vintage racing - while that's undoubtedly a lot of fun, the regulating folks out here in the west are super strict and it's kind of a rich guys club which I don't aspire to. We have a lot of rich guys like Jon Shirley (co-founder of Microsoft) racing multi-million $ pre-WWII Alfa Romeos and such. Jon is a down to earth fella and a great ambassador of the class/sport, however, there's a lot of other guys that seem to be quite the opposite.

2. I'm really thinking of open track days with the mustang/porsche/alfa type clubs. Typically, so long as you're respectable on the track then you can run what you brung in one of the open sessions. I'd rather track with the mustang/alfa/porsche club for example because those guys usually aren't babying their cars (unlike the f-car club) and they're making some decent speed. I wouldn't want to track with the Hilman Imp club just because of the speed delta.

3. I get the point regarding the fragile nature of F5000 and Indy type cars. My hope is that if I'm not beating on the car too bad the failure rate (cracked frame tubes/carbon/suspension, blown engines/transaxles, etc.) might not be that bad. I do recognize that maintenance and inspection is a threshhold matter regardless of how much speed/aggression on the track and would plan on a rigorous process.

4. The SLC/Ultima suggestion is a good one for sure. Those are super cool cars that are amazingly fast and safe for a very good price. I'm kind of a nostalgia buff so an older race car (F5000/Indy) has a lot of psychological appeal however. I do recognize that stuffing a historic old race car would be a tragedy. The formula ford suggestion is also a great idea - those FFs smoke most everything else out there - however, I have to selfishly admit that I like the bigger V8 stuff just for the raw grunt of it. So, a NASCAR car is a great suggestion too. Never pictured myself behind the wheel of an old NASCAR car but holy smokes, that would be fun too.

5. The $28K ex-M. Andretti car on ebay is indeed one that I have considered. It looks pretty solid and the seller seems straight forward. Sounds like the transaxle is in OK shape. Would it really be a totally hack manuever to just engineer an adapter plate for a 331 SBF, put on a Holley or Webers, and just go for it??

6. Not getting heat into the tires by going 7/10ths is indeed an issue I hadn't thought of, and a very good point. Wondering if there's some more modest rubber in the right dimension which doesn't require quite as much heat to run reasonably....?

7. Buget. If I can get a car like the $28K ex-Andretti Indy car, drop in $15K for a basic 331, adapter, carburetion/EFI and a look-over at the transaxle, another $10K for inspection and repair of suspension/body/controls/rubber/etc. then that's around $50K which is pretty modest. Add another $5K/year for running costs and that's a pretty modest budget for a whole lot of big fun on the track. Roughly the same for a really nice GT40 or f-car.

8. I seriously thought about buying a 1978 Alfa Romeo Formula 1 car that was for sale a couple years ago. It came with an impressive spares package but was quite expensive for the whole kit and kaboodle. When it came down to actually striking a deal it became clear just how much additional money would have to be spent to actually run the thing - a SBF 331 is about 1/20th the cost of an Alfa Formula 1 engine. I eventually realized the thing would have probably just sat in the shop collecting dust and taking up space, and passed.

Thank you again gents. Let me go through some of the linked data and share a few more thoughts.

Cliff,
Re: putting the ford stock block engine in an Indy tub and making it work correctly on track is not really as easy as it seems. A few points are:
1. The engine is a stressed member,so engineering/building an adapter/engine plate to take the loads should be done by someone with considerable experience( read expensive to do) so the chassis geometry is not compromised .
2. Even dry-sumping the Ford motor(expensive in it's own right) would not guaranty the crankshaft CL to match that of the transaxle,again problems can arise from mismatching components.
3. That tran$axle!!! Just because it can handle 800HP at 11,000rpm does not mean it can handle 400-500 at 7,000rpm. It's the torque loading that kills the tiny,narrow gears in those gearboxes(also,price out how much each replacement ratio is from X-trac!!). I went through this with a Formula Holden/ne F3000 car the past few years. The Reynard/Hewland transverse box was designed for the Judd or Cossie V8 making 500hp at 11,000rpm with low peak torque. When the Buick/Holden V6 was installed with much more torque at much lower revs, the box's life was rated in HOURS! In the manuals included with the car some of the trans parts lives were: input shaft 5,000km,gears at 3000km,bearings and final drive at 3000km.
4. Fuel cell. The bladder in an Indy car is designed for Methanol.Period. To run gas you have to have a new bladder made. They are not inexpensive. I recently had a center-tank bladder for my GTU car made by ATL here in NJ to the custom shape of it's container(which is still very simple compared to the shape of some openwheel cars with multiple compartments,booster pumps and reserve tanks) and it was north of $3000!
If it sounds like I am trying to dissuade you from using an Indy car as an open track car, I am. I really desired to do the same until I investigated further. One major point is,no matter how safe and crashtest certified the modern carbon tub can be,if you collide with a 3500# car (incidents can and DO happen in DE) YOU will be the looser in that battle of physics.They were just not designed to run along side of heavier cars.
In my opinion,after being involved in DE and racing (both as participant and event/sanctioning body staff member) is that open wheel and closed fender cars should not be intermixed in a DE or racing situation. It is tough as it is in racing when you might have SRFs and S2000(running in SU) along side sedans that can't be seen until the last minute.

How about a track only replica of a T70 Lola. 400hp SBC and a G50 Porsche would do it. I bet you can build one for a lot less than making an old Indy car work. Figure about the same cost or less as a new Corvette. You can run it in any of the west coast open track groups that I am aware of and they will welcome you with open arms. A GT40 is a better choice IMHO. You will never get turned down as an entry. The Lola or GT40 can be run on DOT radials to great effect.

You will however have a VERY difficult time finding anyone to let you run an open wheel car at a typical open track event. It just isn't done. My advice is to buy a complete open track car of your choosing that is already done and proven. A pre COT NASCAR with a 400inch/500HP SBC on Hoosiers is very fast. These are the safest OT car out there and available at a good price from time to time. A couple of sets of tires, brake pads and gas and have fun all year long.

Oh and by the way there are parts EVERYWHERE and they are cheap as compaired to ANY other form of V8 race car.

Well, gents, again, thank you. Was hoping for a little more encouragement to be honest, but I do respect the very well thought out points that have been made. Yes, there are no doubt better, and more fit-for-the-purpose, cars out there. And, doing it right does involve awareness of critical components such as fuel cells as wisely pointed out by Dave. Additionally, suitable engineering is required to deal with the suspension integrity where the block is a structural member. Got it, makes total sense.

As to running open wheel cars on the same track as sedans, the clubs I've spent time with on the track for marque track days have been quite tolerant of non-marque cars of all kinds (including open wheel) provided the driver isn't in the novice class, and doesn't act like an idiot on the track. Slaloming around slower cars is obviously going to get you booted for the day. So, passes need to be managed/controlled and reasonable running distances maintained with everyone driving well within their skills. I do recognize that the physics of open wheel cars call for racing against other open wheel cars.

OK, so let me try this on you - different approach to the same notion: wouldn't it be a whole lot of fun to run a high revving 331 SBF with webers in an old Indy car??

It would be a blast. If you have the money and time to make this happen then by all means go for it. You may need to build a structure cage around the engine to incorporate it where a stressed engine used to sit.The most important part is to make sure we get our pictures.

Maybe a suggestion to perhaps find an outfit that rents an Indy car(be powered by a proper Cossie engine or converted to some other type) to try before you invest huge sums of time and money.Travel and track location should not be an issue here as it's easier to swallow even a couple thousand trying one out than dumping a car you don't like after your first outing! I can't think of it being more than $1500 a day for just a track day environment(racing,with it's risks are understandably more expensive) and may be money well spent if you find that the car is too much for you or you just don't like it.
Do some investigating,there are a few outfits that do HSR BOSS racing( I would start with that web site that I gave you in the first reply,he has been involved with late model LOLAs or a while and seems knowledgeable and willing to help others) and point you in the right direction.
Good luck, bring kneepads,foam for your butt and Ibuprofin--These things will beat you up plenty even in a short session!!!

Dave

Cliff, I would agree with Dave that something like a formula ford is a very affordable fast track day car. If you really want more power look at formula atlantic. Swift 008 or 014's are going for $30-40K now. Their ground effects give phenomenal cornering and braking. Far more than you can get with a F5000. 240hp with 1100 lbs was plently of power when I raced them.
The comment about open wheeled cars not being welcome at track days has some validity. Down here at PIR there are a few organizations that allow them (some require a full race license), but many do not. Maybe it's different up at Pacific Raceways by you.

Check out DSR (D-Sports Racer) class. The cars are 800 pounds,ground effects and wings, 180 hp 1000 cc Motorcycle engines. It is one of the fastest classes in SCCA. The cars can be either converted Formula cars, self built cars, to purchased cars. I used to run Formula Ford, and the engines are not designed to run 7000 rpm, so constant maintaince is required (head refresh every 3 race weekend, complete engine refresh every 6 race weekends... $$$$$). Plus, they didn't sound very sexy! The motorcycle engine is designed to rev 11-12,500 (sounds like a proper race engine), it has a six speed sequential gearbox, and will run all season without a refresh.

My car started life as a Van Diemen FF, now it has a Yamaha R1 engine and was highly modified frame and new suspension design.


Darnel

My favorite class is D Sports Racing! Super performance too. To add a note, tires last a very long time as well. Met a guy at Road Atlanta a couple years ago with a self-build car, had a blast all weekend, slept in his pick-up truck, etc. Total cost for him was a couple hundred dollars for the entire weekend (not including entry fees).

Years ago, most of this class were self-build cars and the ingenuity displayed was amazing.

Redman was there running a B-19 and came by just to chat with the guy. He walked away shaking his head after he learned of the minimal costs involved to run these cars. Lots of fun!

cliff,

With the local PCA here in Seattle, we have a myriad of cars. I bring three diferent ones. We have run groups so people can be in a group with like speed and talent. That makes things much more enjoyable for everyone. I was thinking of getting a Formuld Ford. One was for sale at the vintage races this year for 19k. I understand it was a little steep, but still, cheap fun.

A well sorted Porsche in the 964 variant will go for about 20k, a C6 vette, (a great track car with the Z51 track package) should go for about 40k. I drive these and have a blast and it is very inexpensive to run. I do run the 40, but I have had a bad track record of breaking it. I think that I have is sorted out now and am looking forward to this next season. The Porsche club has 7 dates this year and are not very expensive. PM me and I will give you the details.

Ian in Issaquah wants to take his out with me this year, maybe we can have 3 40's at the Porsche club this year! That would be cool

Tom