Track day dilema... Wreck involved.

Hey guys,

Many of you are track enthusiasts and veterans, I'd also assume some of you are lawyers by your posts, so I'll post this query to get your reactions...

I have a friend who recently went out on a track day. It was a HPDE day, and thus is considered drivers education. They decided to test the drivers and throw a course wide red flag during a hot session. My friend saw the red flag as he was at the apex of a corner. The car in front of him stopped at the exit of the corner, right in the driving line. Needless to say, my friend clipped the back of stopped car. This totaled my friends car and ripped off the rear driver side body work of the other car.

Now, here's what's going on. The question of liability has arisen, and the owner of the hit car is trying to make my friend pay. Is this right, or is the liability actually on both parties, or what? The driver of the hit car did purchase single event insurance on his car, my friend only has his regular liability insurance. The driver of the hit car wants my friend to pay the deductible on the single event insurance, which is 1% of the total damage.

What are your thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks in advance for any advice!!!

Brian

I take it that neither driver signed a waiver?

Probably would be worthless anyways..

You may not like my answer - but here goes...

I would think that your friend would actually be at fault here for failing to keep his vehicle under control.

Certainly the guy that stopped right on the driving line has some degree of fault, but I would not think it to be very much..
The "rule" is that you stop as safely as possible over to the side of the track within eyesight of the next corner station.

Both gents should turn this into the insurance companies and let them figure it all out..

I'd tend to agree with Randy - based on the information presented your friend would be at fault. Red flag means stop now, pull over. The driver in front of him did that, your friend should have done the same. If not possible to stop he should have kept control of the car and not hit the driver that did stop.

"Track Days" lead to interesting discussions. A few weeks ago an instructor was killed at Carolina Motorposrts Park participating in a Porsche Club track day. Porsche 930 Turbo, single roll bar, no full cage. On another forum I participate in there was lively discussion of this sad event with all matter of opinons. One of the common view points was "don't take anything out on track you can't walk away from if totalled because the responsiblity is all yours no matter who is at fault."

Thanks guys. Please keep the information coming. I do agree with you though. He should have been able to stop, but when he saw the flag, he said he was "booking it around the corner hard" and when he saw the flag, then the car in front of him hard on the binders, he couldn't escape the collision. The car he hit had just gone around him from a decent straight and then into this corner. I wasn't there so I don't know everything about the incident. I believe they both did have to sign waivers to attend the classes. Again, I don't know.

Hmmmmm... in reality it's most likely the fault of both parties but as others have said, it will probably go down as your friend's. It would be interesting to hear the corner workers' recollection of the event though because as I remember, although I have never had a red flag flown (and I am far limited in my driving compared to Ron and others here...) it was always in my mind that if one were thrown, I would NEVER EVER slam on my brakes and just stop where I am. That would be the absolutely worse thing you could do, especially at the exit of a corner. Yes, the following driver has to do his job to stop also, but the one stopping (or doing whatever) has to be mindful of others on the track at all times. The point of a red flag is to stop all traffic and get it out of the way so emergency services can get around the track unhindered, not to create mayhem by having all cars slamming on their brakes trying to break the world record in stopping distance. That doesn't make sense, especially on a track with cars having varying degrees of stopping power. There's a reason why they say stop in a controlled manner and pull over. Pull over means to the inside or generally to the right if on a straight. That way everyone will consistently be out of the way, not mishmashed around the track, like on the racing line at the exit of a corner.

Seems to me if your on a race track,
at the end of the day you pick up the piece's, and go home.
I've been hit with out notice, and no fault of mine.
Leaving a lot of damage to boot.
And no one ever paid to fix my car but me.
When your on a race track,
you know there's a chance of that happening.
Sad, but true !
If it was any different,
half the crowd there would be lawyers ! ;(

This weekend there were a lot of cars damaged in this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYFfs3miMrY

And some damaged in this:

YouTube - 2010 SAARC Start

Everyone had to tend to their own cars no matter who was at fault.

Ron, that's kind of what I'm thinking. This guy was in a bone stock ........ and was wearing a fireproof driver suit, a HANS device, and racing shoes, but still had stock seatbelts and everything in the car. I think he just wanted to make a stink. Anyway, my friend handed over his insurance information to the guy and will let the insurance companies battle it out.

Chris, you put it in the exact words I spoke to him when he called me. I couldn't believe the guy stopped his car in the middle of the track on the driving line out of a corner. If he had gone a little further out from the corner and pulled off to the side of the track, as instructed, there wouldn't even be this discussion.

Cutris, well said and I agree 100%. Racing is a contact sport. If you aren't prepared to have a little battle damage along with all the fun, then don't do it. My wife and I were talking about this today and she said, "If that was you, I'd be yellin' at you! Not out of anger, out of fright. I'd say some things and call you names, but remember that I love you and I'm just scared for you." Kinda cool. LOL

Conquest351 said:

Ron, that's kind of what I'm thinking. This guy was in a bone stock ........ and was wearing a fireproof driver suit, a HANS device, and racing shoes, but still had stock seatbelts and everything in the car. I think he just wanted to make a stink. Anyway, my friend handed over his insurance information to the guy and will let the insurance companies battle it out.

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Odd combination of safety equipment. A HANS doesn't work at all with stock seatbelts, at least not the one I have and the ones I've seen. All these points came up in that discussion of the death at CMP. Track days are not racing. I have some friends are are interested in their laptimes, going faster and so on, but they're still doing "track days". To those folks that are interested in doing that plus are working on tire temps, using various race tires, sqeaking out every last 0.1s, like these guys were, I suggest pony up, get a race car, and go racing. Or stop playing like you are.

Might not be much of an insurance battle. With my insured cars there is "track use" clause that states there is no coverage in the event track use.

A Hans device with stock seatbelts is an accident in itself, just waiting to happen!

My insurance guy tells me the insurance ends as soon as you enter Pit Lane.
Wearing a Hans device with a normal lap sash belt shows that the guy knows little about what he was doing. I'm sure the medics on the forum would say that is likely to be more dangerous than no Hans device.
One thing I'm curious about, I've always thought that a red flag meant end of session or race and proceed slowly without overtaking to pit lane, not stop on the track.
Maybe the rules have changed since my bug eyed Sprite days?

This is what the FIA has to say:

This should be shown waved only on instruction from the Clerk of the Course when it becomes necessary to stop a practice session or the race. All drivers are required to slow down immediately and proceed to the pit lane (or the place foreseen by the regulations of the Event), and must be prepared to stop if necessary. Overtaking is not permitted.

molleur said:

This is what the FIA has to say:

This should be shown waved only on instruction from the Clerk of the Course when it becomes necessary to stop a practice session or the race. All drivers are required to slow down immediately and proceed to the pit lane (or the place foreseen by the regulations of the Event), and must be prepared to stop if necessary. Overtaking is not permitted.

Click to expand...

Thanks mate, the rule hasn't changed then. So if I were the judge I would say the bloke who slammed on his anchors and stopped on the racing line is in the wrong. But I ain't da Judge!

Werd. LOL Thanks guys. Tomorrow we go to pick up the car. Needless to say it wasn't drivable and my friend didn't foresee totaling his car so he drove it to the track.

In my experience each track day uses the flags to their own regs. Often red is used to bring the session to an end for some emergency, breakdown on racing line etc. and is actioned by "bringing your car to a safe and controlled stop off of the racing line and within sight of a corner worker to await further instruction".

I can't fathom this guy if he has single event insurnace and 1% deductible as even if he has a $100K car he's out $1K.... I'd say he's getting off damn light. Your friend however is likely going to eat the full cost of his repairs.

Most insurance policies no longer cover and specifically exclude HDPE or any form of track days for this very reason, non qualified race drivers acting like race drivers... a recipe for disaster IMHO. Out of interest what level group were they running?

Well, my buddy doesn't want me to get too specific in the details, but they were in the advanced group. My friend has some track experience (one event previous plus some time at a race driving school in Austin) and so the instructor with him all day just kept advancing him. The instructor was with him during the crash, and couldn't believe the guy stopped where he did and even got on to him for it from what I understand, as did the hit car driver's instructor. Again, I wasn't there so I don't know all the details.

Generally speaking, regardless of waivers that may have been signed, when you take a car onto the track you're consenting to the ordinary negligence of other drivers. What that means is that you're agreeing not to hold others accountable (make them pay) for acts which are foreseeable under the circumstances. Rubbing fenders and even being involved in an accident is a foreseeable event. What's not foreseeable is the gross negligence of other participants on the track. Something like driving around the wrong direction, or, stopping and parking the car in the middle of the track. Generally, you don't consent to the gross negligence of other participants, which means that if injury/damage results from their grossly negligent act then they have to compensate for it.

Here, I don't think either party was grossly negligent - there was, after all, a red flag in effect. So, what that means is both parties pick up the pieces and go home and deal with their damages themselves.

I agree with Pete - no ordinary insurance is going to cover an accident on the track anyway.

Ron Earp said:

Everyone had to tend to their own cars no matter who was at fault.

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I believe this is fact everywhere, when you sign the waver its all your baby. I think your insurance is void also when your on the tract unless you have some special racing insurance policy.

In the Uk I would expect each to be responsible for their own damage as this is not a public highway insurance scenario. A bit tough but signs everywhere here say Motorsport is Dangerous! Applies to track days as well as race days.

FWIW the definition for a red flag here is:

Red Flag: Immediately cease driving at racing speed and proceed slowly, without overtaking, and with maximum caution to pits or start line obeying Marshals (corner workers to you guys) instructions, and being prepared to stop should the track be blocked.

If at the pre event breifing there was a discussion on flags then that will be key to what they mean as if not a race day, the ability to alter the meaning of flags is to be expected. If no definition of what each flag means on the day then it is not unreasonable for a default position to be the racing regulations as stated for that country.

Using mirrors to ensure no one is up your backside seems a common sense thing to do as well if the track ahead is immediately clear. Having just shot past your mates car and then hitting the brakes on the corner exit seems very daft to me. And stopping on the line.....its getting worse and worse. The guy who got hit sounds really inexperienced and to be wearing a HANS device without the right belts is plain crazy. All the gear and no idea it seems to me. He is on his own in my books. But then so is your friend with his damage.

Just re-read and noticed there were instructors in each car. The liability may rest on the instructor in the stopped car. When I had an instructor at Goodwood some years ago he had a tag on his belt showing his insurance details and that covered my car as when he was in the car, I was under his control and so under his insurance.