Why does my 302 SBF get so hot and lose coolant?

Hi guys.

Now that the Perana is running and on the road I'm finding and fixing stuff.

One thing that is bugging me big time is this.

The 302 is getting hot. Quite how hot I won't know til I've Thermo gunned it.

These are the symptoms -

1. engine incredibly hot like a furnace.

2. Losing coolant in differing ways I'll explain.

3. Seems like excessive build up of pressure in water system - will explain also.

4. top of rad gets so hot that no matter how much or how little black paint I use it still blisters and melts.

Now the thing is - when it was a standard 'cooking' engine and sadly worn and under powered it never got hot and never lost fluid.

With a 13 lb rad cap the water pushes past the cap and out of the overflow hole.

With a 15 lb cap it seems to do the same but to a lesser extent - i.e. I've not witnessed it spurting out but when I've rested the motor and the electric fans have finished - when I take the cap off it's down of fluid.

With a 20 lb cap on the radiator top tank expands and bulges like it's fit to burst and fluid has still been lost.

Having said all that - I just did a 50 mile return journey having changed back to the 15 lb cap and I only lost about 2 pints - but that's still 2 pints too much.

My coolant ratio is 50% water and 50% blue antifreeze.

The water never seems to boil up and hiss and spit out - well not when stationary anyway. My money would be on some sort of pressure thing.

I have attached some pics showing my hose set up.

The water pump is a relatively new aluminium one suited for a 1971 vintage 302.

The hose connections are different now as I was told the original setup on my car was wrong - funny thing is it never previously lost fluid.

I have been driving like Miss Daisy with occasional blip to overtake and exercise the 302.

The engine spec is - 5 litre with 20 plus pistons Keith Black Hypereutectic pistons. Standard cast heads with new valves and slightly ported. all new gaskets from Summit Rcaing. Duplex timing chain. High capacity oil pump. Holley 570 Avenger carb. Fast road type cam.

Ignition is Accel dizzy with Pertronix breakerless Ignitor system. MSD Blaster 2 coil. 3 inch air filter.

Cosworth electric twin fans - sucking the air through the rad in the right direction!!

Radiator is a 2 year old 5 core beast.

Heater matrix brand new copper / brass.

Timing is 34 degrees.

Plugs NGK Mustang type.

Any thoughts would be gratefully received.

Having searched the Internet it seems that there are loads of possibilities - some of which are scary some are simple but none are conclusive.

I do wonder my water circulation is an issue now The arrows do not necessarily indicate direction of water flow.

DSCF3191.jpg


DSCF3192.jpg


DSCF3193.jpg


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Sounds like you got a significant amount of air trapped in the system (probably coming from the heater matrix). Jack up the car, so that the radiator is the highest point and let the engine run with the top hose loose to bleed the air out
Regards

Andy
 

Russ Noble

GT40s Supporter
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What Jac Mac is saying about the restrictor is that you might be getting too much flow bypassing the radiator if the heater is on.

If Andy's suggestion doesn't effect a cure.

I assume you are running a thermostat? What happens when you take it out? If its still getting too hot without the thermostat I would remove the radiator tanks and clean out the core.

After that you might have to get into the motor itself, although before doing that I would clutch at straws and remove the waterpump to check the impeller clearances.

What was "wrong" with the old way it was plumbed that caused no problems?
 
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What was "wrong" with the old way it was plumbed that caused no problems?

old_set-up.jpg


The 'old' set up was as shown - sorry if it seems complicated.

1. water pump outlet went to heater matrix.

2. the other heater matrix hose instead of going into the inlet manifold - went to the thermostat housing connector.

3. the bypass or the other water pump connection was plugged.

I still have to 'burp' the system but I wonder if the old way just worked anyway or whether my 302 builder is correct when he connects the water pump outlets to the thermostat housing and the heater matrix hose and also the second heater hose to the inlet manifold as is currently the case?

To be sure I'm conflummoxed!
 

Russ Noble

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1. water pump outlet went to heater matrix.

Thats actually waterpump inlet.

Essentially the old setup means you are only running one bypass istead of two, which is better from a cooling perspective. However when the heater is off (water valve closed) there will be no flow through this and in some engines, if you are running a thermostat, that lack of a bypass will cause overheating. Although apparently that was not an issue.

Nevertheless the way you have it now should work fine. First step try it with the thermostat out.

Don't forget when you bleed the heater as Andy suggested to do it with the controls set to hot. (ie water valve open)

Also out of left field, I wonder if you have a reverse rotation pump? (But from what I can gather, the pulleys sit differently so it's not a straight bolt on replacement, apparently, but for peace of mind would be worth checking when/if you take the pump off.)
 
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Randy V

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Make sure that the thermostat is oriented correctly (Spring goes inside the manifold)..

Also - unless I buy a thermostat that already has a hole in it - I drill a 3mm hole in the exposed perimeter and when I install the stat, the hole goes to the top. This makes it a lot easier to burp the system.

It's also not unheard of to have the impeller of the water pump come off the shaft.. You should be able to verify coolant flow in the top tank of the radiator..
 
Make sure that the thermostat is oriented correctly (Spring goes inside the manifold)..

Also - unless I buy a thermostat that already has a hole in it - I drill a 3mm hole in the exposed perimeter and when I install the stat, the hole goes to the top. This makes it a lot easier to burp the system.

It's also not unheard of to have the impeller of the water pump come off the shaft.. You should be able to verify coolant flow in the top tank of the radiator..

I recall the stat has that 3mm hole.

BTW my car does not have a valve for heater control - just a flap inside the heater box that shuts off hot air. So the heater matrix always has coolant running through it at the same temp as the rest of the car.

Also I don't know why a water pump would rotate the 'wrong' way when it spins in the same direction via the alternator pulley i.e. everything rotates the same way plus this pump is the correct one for a 1971 vintage 302 and previously cooled the car.

Boy am I more konfused than ever!!
 

Russ Noble

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BTW my car does not have a valve for heater control - just a flap inside the heater box that shuts off hot air. So the heater matrix always has coolant running through it at the same temp as the rest of the car.

OK, well given that little gem I would say your new circulation system has too much bypass. Go back to the old plumbing layout, which will circulate more water through the radiator, obviously making it run cooler. Whoever told you it was wrong has given you a bum steer.
 
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OK, well given that little gem I would say your new circulation system has too much bypass. Go back to the old plumbing layout, which will circulate more water through the radiator, obviously making it run cooler. Whoever told you it was wrong has given you a bum steer.

Thanks I'll re-plumb it today and see what happens - I'd like to think that is probably the right direction to go. It's the only major change to the system.

I knew I'd open a can of worms by high lighting this - insomuchas I've got about 12 possibilities to explore ranging from gaskets to heads warped to block cracked yada yada.......

It's one of those things that doesn't have an obvious cause and because of the endless solutions it just breaks your heart imagining masive remedial work.

Thanks everyone so far - will try the original plumbing and update you.
 
Are you aware that when you run a radiator like that with no seperate header tank or recovery bottle that you DO NOT fill the top tank completely, but leave it approx 1" down from the filler neck to create an effective expansion point. It will always push out a bit of coolant if you keep topping it up to the top...

If you fit a recovery bottle plus a dual seal recovery type cap then you fill it completely plus leave about 2" in the recovery bottle.

It appears that the radiator has a fabricated ( flat sides/square corners ) top tank, if this is the case it will eventually fail with higher pressure caps from flexing etc..it might pay to rework these if thats the case.

In all of your data you dont mention what actual temp gauge readings you are getting, you could be worrying about nothing other than perhaps a sticky thermostat & a couple of minor cap/hose issues.

In some Capris/Cortinas that I have repowered over the years we found it necessary to cut a couple of air exit holes in the inner guards to prevent pressure build up in the engine bay, a front airdam can create the same effect to help extract hot air from the engine bay.

I would also suggest that you convert to a 'cold air' system for your air cleaner, either from the base of w/screen or in the bonnet/hood bulge ( it is a 3liter capri bonnet?) to in front of the radiator.. V8's dont like hot air...
 
Tried 'old' plumbing today - did 70 odd miles - appears to be better - won't know for deff until tomorrow morning.

I take the point about overfilling. Hopefully I wont need an expansion bottle - but if I have to so be it. I like to find causes before I try solutions.

many thanks
 
Do you need a 50% mix? That allows for -35deg or so anti-freeze property.

Pure water actually conducts away more heat than any mix so it's a trade off.

Have a run with water to see if it runs cooler. If it does then try lower mixes of coolant. If it boils sooner the issue is with your system.
 

Kevin Box

Supporter
Peranaman.

Just a thought .

Sometimes after an engine has been to engine recond shop and they hot tank your engine all of the scale in the watergallery gets loosened and on first fire-up a large percentage of this get deposited in your radiator.
If after plumbing the system back to original you still have prblems and are running out of ideas this might be worth a check.

I used to own a 3000GXL that had been repowered with 302 - they are great fun

Regards

Kevin Box
 
Peranaman.

Just a thought .

Sometimes after an engine has been to engine recond shop and they hot tank your engine all of the scale in the watergallery gets loosened and on first fire-up a large percentage of this get deposited in your radiator.
If after plumbing the system back to original you still have prblems and are running out of ideas this might be worth a check.

I used to own a 3000GXL that had been repowered with 302 - they are great fun

Regards

Kevin Box

Kevin - the only part of the rebuild that wasn't touched is the block - the bores were fine so we left it alone. Got a feeling the direction of coolant flow is the key to this. Will update by Wednesday after testing. thanks again to one and all.

Just goes to show from the number of responses I've had - that heating and cooling are real issues and can take on mamoth options to resolve.

It's easy to see why the VW Beetle made life easy..........
 

Randy V

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Just goes to show from the number of responses I've had - that heating and cooling are real issues and can take on mamoth options to resolve.

Good observation and quite true.. Especially with the SBF - 302

It's easy to see why the VW Beetle made life easy..........

They had their own special cooling issues - but those are for another thread... :lipsrsealed:
 
Update - put my plumbing back to the way it was form SA originally - and although it's contrary to 'the manual' I've done 140 miles and lost no water.
 
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