Just wondering if anyone else has had occassion to pull the deck panel around the fluid reservoirs and peek underneath. I was anxious to get my car out for its first drive of the season and decided I had better do the windscreen wiper transmission upgrade first. (That may well be a candidate for its own thread.) Anyway, the procedure entails removal of the deck panel and dropping the fluid bottles in order to access the wiper motor and cable conduit. What I found was troubling. The reservoirs are the traditional, old school Girling metal cans, which I suspected, but their attachment was the problem. They are simply hose clamped to a sheet metal clip angle that's in turn fastened to the deck plate and then "weather sealed" with a wishful bead of rtv. The real world performance of the assembly is that removing the caps to top off fluid breaks the integrity of the "seal" in short order. In my case a combo of rain water and brake fluid had found its way past the "seal", eaten off the finish of the top of both cans and started some fairly aggressive corrosion. If this is the way the original cars were configured, I would think it is one area that could benefit from some more modern thinking. For the life of me I cannot understand why, since the reservoirs are hidden, Jimmy Price's guys didn't use plastic bottles. I can't bring myself to put this thing back together in this fashion. At the very least I'm contemplating fabricating some type of rack for the cans that is independent of the deck piece in order to make service more managable. Of course, that would further delay driving the darn car. I was just wondering, since mine is a very early car, if you guys with later cars have anything different going on.
Brake & Clutch fluid reservoirs
- Thread starter daryl adams
- Start date
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
OK, I looked. Bleah.
The real crime is that in gluing the reservoirs in with black RTV they left annular channels around the panel opening for brake fluid and water to collect. If at least they had gone heavier with the RTV and filled up the entire opening the fluids would drain away.
I think the easy way out of this would be to keep the current arrangement but replace the RTV with foam rubber shaped in a way that would disallow the collecting of fluids. That way you could disassemble the whole thing without doing RTV surgery.
One thing I'm wondering is how these Girling canisters were intended to be mounted. My Islero had a couple of them but I just don't remember how they were attached to the fender well. P2160's clutch reservoir has a flattened area where the bracket is hose clamped to it, but I don't know if that was done on purpose by Hi-Tech or incidentally by closing down on the hose clamp, as opposed to representing an intentional mounting surface provided by Girling.
There is lots of room below the reservoirs, and fixed surfaces all around them to which brackets could be attached. I think where I'm stuck is in imagining an elegant way to connect a bracket to the reservoirs. They appear to be featureless cylinders without mounting lugs, etc. Were they meant to be mounted in a circular sheet metal band clamp of some kind?
The real crime is that in gluing the reservoirs in with black RTV they left annular channels around the panel opening for brake fluid and water to collect. If at least they had gone heavier with the RTV and filled up the entire opening the fluids would drain away.
I think the easy way out of this would be to keep the current arrangement but replace the RTV with foam rubber shaped in a way that would disallow the collecting of fluids. That way you could disassemble the whole thing without doing RTV surgery.
One thing I'm wondering is how these Girling canisters were intended to be mounted. My Islero had a couple of them but I just don't remember how they were attached to the fender well. P2160's clutch reservoir has a flattened area where the bracket is hose clamped to it, but I don't know if that was done on purpose by Hi-Tech or incidentally by closing down on the hose clamp, as opposed to representing an intentional mounting surface provided by Girling.
There is lots of room below the reservoirs, and fixed surfaces all around them to which brackets could be attached. I think where I'm stuck is in imagining an elegant way to connect a bracket to the reservoirs. They appear to be featureless cylinders without mounting lugs, etc. Were they meant to be mounted in a circular sheet metal band clamp of some kind?
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Guys,
What I did was remove them, clen up and reassemble with "The Right Stuff" to seal between the cans and the cover plate.
The Right Stuff is great for this.
Now have a great seal to the cover and when unscrewing the covers the cans do not move at all.
Also good idea to disassemble the cans outlet fitting and anneal the copper washer then reassemble if any signs of leakage/weapage.
Do agree that would be better with plastic bottles and I too wouldn't mind that they are not "original like".
BTW Dennis Olthoff IS working on a new assembly with plastic bottles as a retrofit but, not yet ready.
Steve P2125
On a non related note:
Have replaced the ball joint boots (were torn because as originally received ball joints were not or not adequately greased and the boots tore due to turning forces with no lube to the rubber.
Once had the ball joints out (no easy task) I machined a hex in bottom of the ball joint to allow easy removal and install next time> If anyone wants more info I will elaborate.
Also good idea to install a zerk fitting in the threaded nut that seals the ball in lower control arm as it allows easy greasing.
What I did was remove them, clen up and reassemble with "The Right Stuff" to seal between the cans and the cover plate.
The Right Stuff is great for this.
Now have a great seal to the cover and when unscrewing the covers the cans do not move at all.
Also good idea to disassemble the cans outlet fitting and anneal the copper washer then reassemble if any signs of leakage/weapage.
Do agree that would be better with plastic bottles and I too wouldn't mind that they are not "original like".
BTW Dennis Olthoff IS working on a new assembly with plastic bottles as a retrofit but, not yet ready.
Steve P2125
On a non related note:
Have replaced the ball joint boots (were torn because as originally received ball joints were not or not adequately greased and the boots tore due to turning forces with no lube to the rubber.
Once had the ball joints out (no easy task) I machined a hex in bottom of the ball joint to allow easy removal and install next time> If anyone wants more info I will elaborate.
Also good idea to install a zerk fitting in the threaded nut that seals the ball in lower control arm as it allows easy greasing.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Perhaps that fitting could do double duty in attaching the cans to a platform running underneath the cans?
See new thread on ball joint boots.
Alan,
Interesting idea but, if the cans aren't held when removing the caps (they are difficult to remove) I believe the can would rotate and the fitting/sealing washer would loosen causing leakage.
My way with the "Right Stuff' not only seals the can to the cover plate but aids the clamps in keeping the cans from rotating during uncapping.
Steve P2125
Interesting idea but, if the cans aren't held when removing the caps (they are difficult to remove) I believe the can would rotate and the fitting/sealing washer would loosen causing leakage.
My way with the "Right Stuff' not only seals the can to the cover plate but aids the clamps in keeping the cans from rotating during uncapping.
Steve P2125
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Good point; I forgot that there has to be a provision to resist rotation.
Regarding how the Girling cans were intended to mount; I just answered my own question by looking at the GT40 parts book. Right there on page U is item 27 around the item 28 reservoir: a worm clamp.
Regarding alternatives: as usual Pegasus shows several possibilities:
Pegasus - Master Cylinder Reservoirs & Inlet Hose
In particular the Tilton ones (#3557, 3558 and 3564, all incredibly cheap) have mounting lugs that look easy to deal with: probably mount them to the front wall of the cavity, choose a height that has the caps just poking above the plane of the cover plate, cut a new cover plate with holes that match, and stuff the clearance in those holes with some rubber gasket material or extruded edging (Mcmaster-Carr) to keep the rain out. And the lids are black so they look original....
Done.
BTW Wilwood has some strikingly similar looking kits.
(And that, folks, is typical of why I have a GT40 that *still* isn't running. It's part of the "continuous improvement" program.... that is, it's not yet part of the "just get the damned thing running" program.)
By the way here is how this all looks on P1032, a real Mk II.:
It looks like they mount the reservoirs from below, and then the cover plate just "covers".
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Since I was doing trackdays and wanted easy access to the reservoirs I just got new plastic ones and mounted them on the subframe square tubing by the A/C drier on one side and the washer bottle on the other side. No need to remove the nose. If you look at various racing pics some 40's had reservoirs more accessible. I made a solid aluminum cover where the reservoirs originally were. I can always revert to the original setup if a future buyer wants that.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Good solution! One could even leave the original cans in place, but empty.
Chet Schwer
Lifetime Supporter
Here was my solution to the reservior problem. I enlarged the holes and installed plastic reserviors and JB welded them in the hole after attaching them to the original bracket with tie wraps.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Chet --
Elegant. What is the black ring on either side of the aluminum plate? Is it an O-ring, or some part that comes with the reservoirs?
Elegant. What is the black ring on either side of the aluminum plate? Is it an O-ring, or some part that comes with the reservoirs?
Chet Schwer
Lifetime Supporter
Alan,
They are just O-rings that are there just for cosmetic purposes. I did not install the O-rings shown in the photos on the underside. I just used them for a trial fit.
They are just O-rings that are there just for cosmetic purposes. I did not install the O-rings shown in the photos on the underside. I just used them for a trial fit.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
Be glad to. Now that I've examined the situation more carefully I think I'll go with DaveM's solution. I didn't realize until now that the 1/4"/6.4 mm hoses are actually quite long, and although they disappear down into the chamber in which the cans reside, they reappear immediately right out in the open forward of the HVAC unit. That means those hoses can simply be detached from the existing cans, pulled out of that chamber, and reattached to any new reservoirs. Therefore, the easy way to do this is attach a couple plastic reservoirs to the inside of the LHS sloping square tube, just to the rear of the washer bottle and over the steering rack. That's just forward of the rear edge of the hood opening, meaning I can do a fluid check just by opening the hood. The mounting method would be a simple vertical flat plate attached to the side of the square tube with the reservoirs above with their lids just under the level of the hood opening.
BTW the Tilton parts have barbs for 5/16" hose. I don't know if our 1/4" hose can be persuaded to fit on a 5/16" barb (it is, plastic, so some carving is possible) but at worst a hose barb reducer fitting may be required. McMaster 5463K154, 10 for $5.26.
I measure the Girling cans as 3" by 2.5" dia outside, or 8 oz., so I think the Pegasus 3558-Medium at 6.8 oz. is a good match. The Large one looks awkward to fit.
This scheme has the advantage DaveM points out, namely it's a non-historically accurate improvement that's easy to reverse; my favorite kind.
IAE, this not being mission critical at this time I probably won't do anything about it until I'm running and licensed. Then I'll publish it all.
And BTW in Hi-Tech's defense to my initial reaction, they did adhere to the mission of creating something internally and externally historically accurate (looking). In as much as gluing things in with RTF kinda grosses me out, I couldn't come up with a better solution that meets that requirement and isn't a lot more complicated. None of the walls in that chamber are vertical, so any bracket holding those cans was going to be messy and they needed to weatherproof it anyway (unlike P1032 I suspect) so the solution they chose solves both problems. But it is fragile.
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Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
I like the plastic container idea myself, next time I pull the front off I will check into a retrofit. Daryl is right, its a disaster waiting to happen if you get your car wet.
Alan did you say you have a Islero?? You know Daryl and I are both lambo guys, I have a LP400s low body.
Steve, if you got any pictures of the zerks you added please post them.
Nice job Chet!
Alan did you say you have a Islero?? You know Daryl and I are both lambo guys, I have a LP400s low body.
Steve, if you got any pictures of the zerks you added please post them.
Nice job Chet!
Chet,
Looks like you used Girling's (larger centered for the brakes and smaller offset for the clutch?).
Did you run braided to the master cyls and if so what did you use?
As I recall there isn't much vertical height in the cavity. Were you easily able to make the hose radius?
Have the wire ties and JB weld been enough to hold the cannisters secure when removing and installing the caps?
Where and how did you apply the JB weld?
Is there a flat on the cannisters to rest against the mounting tab to help in anti rotation?
Were you able to use the original plate (did holes match for the new cannisters).
Tx in advance for the answers.
Steve P2125
Looks like you used Girling's (larger centered for the brakes and smaller offset for the clutch?).
Did you run braided to the master cyls and if so what did you use?
As I recall there isn't much vertical height in the cavity. Were you easily able to make the hose radius?
Have the wire ties and JB weld been enough to hold the cannisters secure when removing and installing the caps?
Where and how did you apply the JB weld?
Is there a flat on the cannisters to rest against the mounting tab to help in anti rotation?
Were you able to use the original plate (did holes match for the new cannisters).
Tx in advance for the answers.
Steve P2125
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Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
"Had" an Islero; it was the GT40's predecessor. I actually set out to get an Espada (this was 11 years ago) and got side-tracked.... I love early Countachs....
Jack Houpe
GT40s Supporter
I know it thread drift but I wish I had an Islero S. Had the countach now for 20+ years.
I wish there was an easier way to check the level of the brake and clutch without having to remove the front. On tech inspections for a race or track event its a real pain unless you have an RCR.
Seymour Snerd
Lifetime Supporter
See PM re Lambo.
I've gone ahead and ordered all the parts to mount tilton units to the sloping frame rail ($70 total), and what you say is the main motivation. It never occurred to me until this thread how silly it is to have remove the front clip to check.
Some of the race cars had a little access door over the reservoirs, I think, although I may be confusing that with the front oil tank filler.
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