Caster/camber/toe?

Can you measure rear caster/camber with an at-home alignment device like a fastrax or longacre's equivilent, or does that need to be done by a professional shop with an alignment rack?

I wonder if you could unhook the toe bar and manually turn the rea wheels 15* in/out to get a reading?

Also, anybody know what the caster/camber/toe should be for front and rear??

Here you go:

EFNFAST said:

Can you measure rear caster/camber with an at-home alignment device like a fastrax or longacre's equivilent, or does that need to be done by a professional shop with an alignment rack?

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Are you talking of these sort of devices ;
MK Technologies - Toe / Camber Board

Yes you can
But when doing your own setting it's better to have your car on a very flat horizontal area and if possible four wheels on 4 scales (these have to be set horizontally ok with some wood or whatever shim)
One good thing is to set up weight on each wheel correctly as much as possible with a maximum diff in beetwen two sides of 5 to 8 KGs
once this set up is done you can start checking toe , camber etc
Then when all aligment are done is advisable to check again weith balance on each wheel
Be carefull too to have set tire pressure to manufacturer tyre advise

If you cannot borrow these type of scales I remember that Dunlop was providing an cheap device to do this set up wheel by wheel ( see demon tweek may be)

In 35 years of racing work I neither check that professional car road system alignment was better than our shop devices made !!! ( Le Mans cars !!!!!!)

Hope this helps ( just ask for more :blank

I always do my own alignment and I use the longacre device.

Here is an alignment method I developed on my last project using just 4 common tools:
· Tape measure
· Level
· Machinist Square
· Inclinometer (Angle meter)

It is for a front end alignment on a Factory Five '33, but the principles work for the front and rear of any car. This will get it close enough so you can drive it to an alignment shop to do the fine tuning. Using this home spun method, I was able to get the alignment within spec for all camber, toe & caster parameters. The alignment shop simply centered the adjustment within spec.

Note: I used a simple dial type $10 Inclinometer (Angle meter). It would be easier and more accurate if you spurge on a $30 digital version instead.


Click here -> Rumbles Build - Page 6 - FFCars.com : Factory Five Racing Discussion Forum

Dlampe said:

I always do my own alignment and I use the longacre device.

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I have the longacre caster/camber tool (And fastrax) but how did you do the rear - you have to turn the tires 15* in/out, etc....to take a reading and you can't do that with the rears (unless you undid the toe bar and turned them manually?)

Yes, you can try to find a flat area, do your own measuring and such, and perhaps get a good/precise final outcome. It's a lot of work.

Or you can take your car to the local high performance race shop where they have a proper four wheel alignment station and pay a few hundred bucks and be sure that it's absolutely spot on.

I'm a DIY guy, but the latter just seems to make a lot of sense to me.

Cliffbeer2 said:

Yes, you can try to find a flat area, do your own measuring and such, and perhaps get a good/precise final outcome. It's a lot of work.

Or you can take your car to the local high performance race shop where they have a proper four wheel alignment station and pay a few hundred bucks and be sure that it's absolutely spot on.

I'm a DIY guy, but the latter just seems to make a lot of sense to me.

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Slight problem - all the "performance" shops are a piece of shit here.

I took my z06 for an alignment after I lowered it to the best place in town and it took them 3 different times to try to do its alignment. The second time they gave it back with my fvcking steering wheel cocked 45* when the car was driving straight!

I ended up getting out my longacre tool and spending a few hours doing it myself.

Then there was the "best" carb tuner in town who took my fully working cobra and gave it back to me at the point where it stalled anytime i braked and would barely idle.

I ended up buying an LM-2 and tuning the carb myself with the wideband.

Conclusion - I would sooner trust my half-assed attempts than any professional shop.

I align my race cars myself at home. My setup is definitely more than you need, but it does make it faster.

Before you start, you need to find a completely flat are. Even your garage floor will have a slight pitch to it, so use a water level (bucket and a long piece of clear tubing) and level out 4 spots for the tires using 1/8" floor tiles.

The basic procedure is:

1. Put weight in the driver's seat, set tires pressure to hot PSI, level & lock steering wheel
2. Set the ride height (including any rake)
3. Corner balance
4. Set camber/caster
5. Set toe
6. Recheck everything!

Below are the tools I use. If you want to do it cheaper, you can do the toe with two long poles, fishing line and some jack stands (aka "stringing" the car). If you don't have access to scales, take it somewhere to just do the corner balancing. This makes a huge difference in how the car handles, so don't skip this step. I would recommend buying a good caster/camber gauge, as its more repeatable than the square/measure method.

ART Laser String II

Intercomp Caster/Camber Guage

Intercomp Wireles Scales

ART Ride Height Gauge

"Slight problem - all the "performance" shops are a piece of shit here."

No kidding - I took one of my cars to a shop that was supposed be good. They couldn't even drive my car onto the rack without scratching my mufflers, and then the guy sits in my seat with greased up dirty clothes and the list goes on. It's endemic - they almost all suck with no pride in their work. The only people that seem to care are true car enthusiasts... you know, the guys that are almost like working out of their home garages/shops. Cottage industry versus retail I guess.

Alex, You don't need a fancy shop to do alignement, you just don't.

You will need to string the car but jack stands and any old role of string will work. The corner weight scales are relitively important but if you just want an alignment, then the tools you have will work great. Using the strings will set your thrust angle correctly.

I wrote an article on this exact subject for kit car magazine when I still had my gt40. When you get ready to do it, send me a PM and I will be happy to get on the phone talk through the details.

Regarding the rear caster, there is no reason to do that. Bump steer is much more important.

Dlampe said:

Alex, You don't need a fancy shop to do alignement, you just don't.

You will need to string the car but jack stands and any old role of string will work. The corner weight scales are relitively important but if you just want an alignment, then the tools you have will work great. Using the strings will set your thrust angle correctly.

I wrote an article on this exact subject for kit car magazine when I still had my gt40. When you get ready to do it, send me a PM and I will be happy to get on the phone talk through the details.

Regarding the rear caster, there is no reason to do that. Bump steer is much more important.

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I read some thing like this is a book. It had a section on how to do it at home. I think they told people how to do it with a string. Not sure its been a while since I red that section. They also told people how to do it with a straight edge and some cans.

Goggle competition car suspension by Allen staniforth. It is a very good book. I have read it from cover to cover a few times now.

Alex I gave you the wrong book. The book I listed is still a good book. Here is a link to the book. HP Books - HPB1055 -Chassis Engineering- By Herb Adams

I think every car guy should own both of the books.

Collin method is absolutly the one to procced

It's very simple to use rope or aluminium bars (eventually I can help with some explanations beside my poor english!!)
There is also a third system you can built cheap and easy using 2 square tubes fit on your rear and front chassis frame plus 2 small ropes ans 2 small springs

This will help only in toe set up .
You need some cheap electronic inclinometer for horizontal set up for the chassis at beginning and for camber and caster
Remember too that one another very important setup is the position of your end bearing stearing rod on the front uprigth . this point is levelled correctly gives you a much better front balance when breaking hard on narrow curves.
If it can be set up on the upright you can lift the steering rack with some alu shims.
This is an set up to be done moving up and down front car it's named ( french style ) "Dynamic set up" and trust me as soon as is done your car is totally different and you can feel much more confident driving on tracks or on wet condition on normal road !!!

One more detail ; have some paper and pencil and once you 'r doing modification just write down what you did as set up and what is the result !
We use on my team to print some special pages with a rought drawing of the car from top view on many lines to help to write each modification and follow how the set up is going forward

Alex set ups are not as easy as you think. It takes hours to really get it right or longer. I have read all the inputs and they are all basically right. I suggest that if you have never done set ups before see if you can find a race team or shop that will come over to your place and walk you through it the first time with you doing it so you can get it the way you want it. There are many tricks and it is more of an experienced feel to do the set ups. Also they have to be done in the right order or it throws everything off. Bump steer is important and is hard to get right without the knowledge of how to do it. I just did this Saturday and we spent 4 hours on the left rear wheel alone trying to get it the way we needed it to be, it was a real problem but we got it close I think. good luck

Don't worry Michel, your English is a hell of alot better than our French!
At Laguna this year the Mazda GTP mechanics were using the 'aluminum plate-up-against-the-tire' method. It was amazing how simple it all was, I wish I had my camera at the ready while this was happening. Dave, our resident Rotard would have been in heaven.

Mesa said:

Dave, our resident Rotard would have been in heaven.

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I saw them using that too. We must have bumped elbows and not even known it. Then again, I'm usually invisible as you would probably have been staring at my wife like everyone else

Those three cars will be on track at Button Willow in a few weeks for a track event that I am also driving in. Not on track at the same time though

Thanks Mesa !

There are a few retired race engineers there in France who started some "race school" for beginners and they teach how to proceed Set up on various car ( formula , GT or prototype) May be some are existing in States ?
I use too, 2 years ago to drive into some newbies workshop and teach them "how to " just for a nice lunch and good wine !
May be I can fly to you and give an interesting course for Barbecue party and some beer LOL :laugh::laugh::laugh:

My son, Nick, and I use his wheel alignment gauge on our cars. It has a features that allows you to "zero" the gauge to allow for the slope of the floor of the garage. He invented it, and sells it at Tenhulzen Automotive It is very inexpensive and versitile, and can fit in the toolbox on track days. Using jack stands, you can easily check all your paramaters right in the pits, and of course it is easy to do your set-up at home.

Perfect David! Will have to have one of those soon. Thanks for the post and info,
this will be a very useful addition to the toolbox!