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The SLC Clubhouse RCR SLC Build Logs and Technical Questions

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Old 26th April 2012, 09:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
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AMG Engines

Hello All,

I've been a lurker on this forum for a little while, and I have to say that what you guys are doing with your builds, is impressive. There is some unbelievable work going on here.

I'm currently finishing up a FFR GTM build, and was introduced to the RCR world a while back by Allan Uzwiak (AllanSLC), and my buddy Roberto (RM), originally from the GTM forums. At the time, Allan had a beautiful GTM that I was privileged enough to have been allowed to drive. I was invited to come and see the GTM, and learned that he also had a stellar RCR-GT40. He's always been one to promote the hobby in the most positive way.

I've spoken to Fran 2 or 3 times as well, and I really get the impression that he's one of the "good guys". And that he's in this to produce the best car possible for the price. And from what I can tell, he's and his guys are doing exactly that.

I'm using an LS-2 with a reworked G50/03 (5-spd) in my GTM. Since it is strictly a street car, that combination gives me plenty of power and torque for my needs.

However, when thinking of the SLC, one thought came to mind rather quickly... Would a Mercedes AMG engine fit in the engine bay? (Either V8 or V12). And, could the Griffin transaxle be adapted to fit?

The question is asked more out of curiosity than anything else. Especially since the LS can be had for a third of the cost...
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Last edited by MB; 26th April 2012 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 26th April 2012, 11:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

Engine management (FBW, FI, spark) would be the biggest challenge, the V12 would be too long, the V8 would probably fit. IMO.
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Old 26th April 2012, 01:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

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Originally Posted by Mesa View Post
Engine management (FBW, FI, spark) would be the biggest challenge, the V12 would be too long, the V8 would probably fit. IMO.
I figured that the V-12 would be a bit long, but thought I'd ask... If someone were to go this route, would you not be able to use the ECM and engine harness? Then FBW could be wired into the Eng Harness, and everything else could be managed by an ISIS system with 2 or 3 power cells. At least that's how I had it pictured.

But then again, that's why I asked the questions, because I have no real idea...

By the way: Your build thread is amazing! There are so many great ideas in there, it's very obvious that this isn't your first time around the block. Those MT's on the rear of your car are stellar! I like the look of wide rear tires also, and went with 335/30's on my GTM. But Jeezzzz.... Those must be 550/10's.

Looks great!
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Old 26th April 2012, 05:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

I can only speak for Porsche electronics with my 2004 GT3 drivetrain, but I figure Mercedes/AMG isn't too different. The core issue with electronics and using a stock ECU is that is a closed system which cannot be meaningfully altered beyond editing throttle mappings. As a closed system, it expects various sensor inputs from wheel speed to temperature to pressure to RPM. If it's getting a bad signal, it shuts down or runs in a degraded state. Therefore, to make an engine run with the stock ECU and harness, you have to plug in every last sensor and module. On a Porsche, this even includes the dash. They all expect to be there to listen to each other and are basically impossible to reverse-engineer. As much as it's a bunch of CAN data floating around and CAN bus, it's custom to the manufacturer and tough to replicate or emulate.

Therefore, the only solution to run these kinds of engines is to do a fully custom ECU. The best candidates for that are Motec, Pectel (Cosworth) and ViPEC. There are others like Haltech, but they don't look to be as configurable. The cost starts at under $2000 without wiring and sensors, but goes up from there if you wish to:
  1. Use a DFI (GDI) engine. Pectel has a ~$12,000 2-part solution for this, but Motec came out with a brand new DFI ECU in the last couple weeks that should be around 1/4 to 1/3 of the price (haven't checked).
  2. Traction control, launch control, etc. Motec basically prices its ECUs with a base price and you option it from there. Depending on the model, Pectel has this already integrated. Using "fuzzy car build math", my take is that if you're spending this much money on an ECU, $1000-2000 extra to get cool features is money well spent. This gets you the same features of a manufacturer-built supercar, adjustable by dials or switches on the dash.
  3. How much of your own wiring you can do. This is not very plug and play at all. I'm going to literally be stringing individual wires around and it will involve a ton of prep to lay out all the pins, sensors, etc. To balance the engine wiring complexity, I'm running ISIS for the non-drivetrain electronics.

Then you of course need a pro to tune the car on a dyno.

One upside of running an ECU from the above is that all your sensor inputs go into the ECU and are available as CAN data. From there, you have a lot of display options, as well as logging options. All the stuff from Motec, Pectel, AIM, etc. interoperates. Stack displays are a little tougher.

One thing to dig on for AMG/Mercedes is to see what electronics package Pagani runs. I've looked at Koenigsegg and Pagani dashes and you can sometimes - especially on earlier and "R" versions - see standard parts in there, so I figure they're also using some of the above suppliers underneath as well. I'd be curious to understand their layouts.

I've found this super interesting to research by the way and have gone as far as building a Pectel ECU emulator: The beginnings of an In-Vehicle Infotainment (IVI) System blog.timtt by Tim Trampedach

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Old 20th May 2012, 01:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

A quick follow-up to this thread: I may have misread or read into the Motec website and forum too much on the DFI/GDI solution. While their base price for non-DFI is likely to be around where their old ECUs are ($3000-4000 for 8 cylinders), the DFI solution will probably end up in the same range as Pectel. Pricing has not been released.

One data point to cross-reference for DFI pricing and a small addition to the prior post is that the lowest-end Bosch unit for 8 cylinders and DFI is EUR 7,500 (~$10,000) without software.

Bottom line is that once you put options in, with either Bosch or Motec you're getting into the same price range as Pectel. Sorry for having been slightly off on this previously.

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Old 20th May 2012, 03:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

What about bosch ecus I called them and i think they can build a complete system including abs and traction contol for any motor combo out. not 100% but thats what it sounded like
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Old 20th May 2012, 03:45 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

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Originally Posted by rockhopper1970 View Post
What about bosch ecus I called them and i think they can build a complete system including abs and traction contol for any motor combo out. not 100% but thats what it sounded like
Sure! How much are you looking to spend......
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Old 20th May 2012, 06:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

You might find that the width/height of the AMG V-8 is just too much as the AMG engines are quite tall and wide given the presence of overhead cams and multi-valves. Considerably larger than a SBF or even a BBF.
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Old 20th May 2012, 07:52 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benji View Post
Sure! How much are you looking to spend......
Exactly... all possible via Bosch and Pectel right now if you've got the budget, Motec at some point in the future (the M1 is vaporware for now).

What did Bosch quote you for parts and labor?

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Old 7th July 2012, 10:54 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

The haltec will work fine on the 12, though I am not 100% on the length. But I would look at the Ricardo to handle the TQ of the engine
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Old 9th July 2012, 09:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: AMG Engines

(Pssst! Go with the Mercedes-Benz C111 four-rotor Wankel engine! Small, light, already sorted out!) :-)

Very inexpensive, too!

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