Power Adder Expertise...

MB · Oct 8, 2014

Hi All,

I have a question that I have no doubt that you guys can help to answer for me.

It has to do with the decision that some have made to go with a twin turbo set up, or supercharger... My question is... what was the key driver that made you want to go that route and endure the additional expense?

I understand that you can pick up a good bit of additional horse power, but is that the only driver? I saw a website for some engine builder, (I can't remember which one) but there was an LS7 with twin turbos, billet injection rails, a very nice aluminum manifold with long tube runners, etc, etc, etc. Price tag was over $27,000.00. I saw another for around 30k, and the list just continued.

I've read that turbos tend to make the exhaust note quite a bit quieter. I sort of like that by-product, but it's a very expensive muffler...

Super chargers give ungodly levels of power, pretty much on demand. since they don't use the exhaust to help spin the turbines, it does nothing to lessen the volume from the exhaust.

So, is it really just the ability to add more and more power? I've read where Turbo chargers can actually increase gas mileage relative to highway driving. (As long as you're foot isn't constantly at war with the firewall.) And my assumption is that the opposite is true of the supercharger. I've read that the engine uses horse power just to spin the compressors; and quite a lot of horse power at that. So there is apparently a trade-off for a percentage of added horsepower, simply to make the rest of the horse power that it brings to the table.

I am asking these questions in all seriousness. I don't know the pros and cons well enough to make an educated decision as to which I would choose, if I were to go that route. My instinct would be to take the Twin Turbo path, but doing so opens a can of worms as to how to route the exhaust, and waste-gate blow off, etc.

Part of my head is still firmly planted in the Mercedes AMG (normally aspirated) plan. But lately, the other side of my head has started to think that a case could be made to go the simpler, but also more complex route.

Everyone seems to swear by the LS376/480 for the base power unit for the SLC. But I've heard over and over that the LS7 already has beefier internals that wouldn't need to be replaced. Couple that with a set of medium boost turbo chargers that would give just a bit more HP, say around 650, and take advantage of whatever additional benefits may come along with it. Better MPG (LOL), and a quieter exhaust note.

Back in the early 80's I had a euro-spec Porsche 930 turbo. It made quite a lot of power for that time period. (Or at least it felt like it did). Nothing like what cars today are producing, but it was very fast. The problem with that car, though, was that it took a bit of time for the power to spool up, and when it did you'd better have been holding on to it. Because it was going to go somewhere fast.

Are the set ups today similar? Is all of that power that these engines are making, controllable by anything other than your right foot? In other words, does the power come up all at once and slap you in the back with the seat? Or can it be controlled to come up somewhat gradually, without roasting the rear tires, and/or kicking the car sideways in the middle of an intersection... You know the one: the one with the police officer sitting on the other side waiting for you to make a mistake...?

I do know that there seems to be a lot a additional expense involved in putting a system like this together. I know that Schwartz Performance built one for David Stacey (Gearz), but I never heard what the cost was. I've wanted to call Jeff and talk to him about it, and get an idea what that sort of system would cost to build, but I haven't yet.

I wanted to ask you guys first. There are a hand-full of people here that have tackled this type of project. I'm hoping to get some insight as to whether it's tougher than you thought, and whether after you got into it, you felt that it was worth the additional expense? And when you finished, was your car fun to drive in city traffic? Everyone knows that it would be fun to drive in a straight line on the interstate; but how about through city streets with stop and go driving, and intersections, etc?

Thanks,

Mike
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Trippingale · Oct 8, 2014

Superchargers have evolved a lot in the last couple of years, For the cost and simplicity on the SLC the superchargers in the LS family are a hard to beat package.
The one factor not mentioned is there are a lot more SLCs out there with superchargers than turbos, this means there is a lot more tech support for solving problems where as with turbos there could be undiscovered problems just waiting to creep up.
The advantages of turbos are the fact they get there power from the exhaust gasses vs. pulling power from the crank shaft, this means you will get more power at the same boost level with a turbo.
If I am reading your initial post correctly, your target is 650hp, If so, a properly built LS7 will meat that power goal, no forced induction needed, look at Roberto's SLC.
The other personal preference of turbos are they do produce a unique sound and give the car a cool whine, and on acceleration going thru the gears it is also fun to feel them spool up and give you that burst of power. More so with turbos then superchargers I would strongly recommend a Race Logic traction control for the street.

futureGTMdaddy · Oct 9, 2014

IMO, the "twins" definitely have the cool factor going on but don't overlook just a single turbo setup. IF overall HP is your goal then a single turbo setup, if sized properly, can achieve the same goals with less complexity and a little less cost. Heat management is a huge issue as well with any forced induction setup but especially with turbos. Either setup should utilize intercoolers for the incoming air charge but the ambient heat gain from twins can be enormous. I have gone over the pros and cons of each and personally the twins still would be my choice.

gt40fran · Oct 9, 2014

650hp is NA territory that will still idle and drive well on the street.

The only time I would look at TT is for 1000hp and up scenarios...we actually have three in the shop right now being built that will be running between 1000hp and 1500h.....just because they can. These are all TT

Heat management is the biggest issue by far...

A pro built LS engine making 650 will cost around 25-30k.

The same pro-built TT set up with engine and full package will be way more than double that number

Kris · Oct 9, 2014

FWIW: if you're looking for representative cost of NA, non-crate chevy motors ~600HP, this link may help somewhat.

Unless you have an overwhelming desire for 750+ or need to use a high-revving lightweight four-banger instead, modern NA V8's already have 'sufficient' torque for such a lightweight vehicle (for pragmatic purposes).

(have no affiliation with that company nor any idea how good or bad their products might be, though do have a hankering for a 418cid -- would be very interested if anyone here has experience with them)

Troymx576 · Oct 9, 2014

Mike, I would also suggest you get a ride in an SLC with a standard 480hp motor and see how it feels to you. I wanted super high hp and twin turbo at first coming from my 4cyl turbo years and thought it was great. Then I got a ride and was like, oh yah, that is good and fun. 2400lb car and it feels good. My personal goal is around 500hp at the wheel, so 550-600 at the crank and I think that is more than enough.

Now on that note though, a SC whine is a sexy sounding thing. Turbo BOV sound good also, NA screaming it additive as well so I am thinking it comes down to which one you feel will make you smile the most.

MB · Oct 14, 2014

gt40fran said:
650hp is NA territory that will still idle and drive well on the street.

The only time I would look at TT is for 1000hp and up scenarios...we actually have three in the shop right now being built that will be running between 1000hp and 1500h.....just because they can. These are all TT

Heat management is the biggest issue by far...

A pro built LS engine making 650 will cost around 25-30k.

The same pro-built TT set up with engine and full package will be way more than double that number

Thanks Fran. I have wondered how well the heat from the turbos could be dissipated. The practical side of me knows that for my needs, and for what I would use the car for, a normally aspirated engine would probably be all that I could realistically use.

So I've been thinking of what I could use, to make a future build unique to others. So I started researching the feasibility of using the Mercedes AMG 63 engine. The cost is high, but so far I haven't ruled it out. Motec ECU, and tuning is high, but I haven't ruled that out either.

Then the practical side came back again, and started comparing LS engines to the AMG engines. The LS engines are much less expensive in most cases. When you start thinking along the lines of turbos or superchargers the cost becomes comparable to the AMG engines.

So I created the post in order to try to get an answer to one question in particular... Is there any reason, other than "cool factor" or "bragging rights", to invest so much in the name of HP, into a street car that may or may not be able to apply the power being generated?

I have always been a believer that sometimes less really is more, (for a street car).

But less in this comparison starts around 500 to 650 hp, versus 1000+ hp. 500 to 650 hp in a 2400 lb car, is already approaching insanity (in the best possible way).

Troymx576 said:
Mike, I would also suggest you get a ride in an SLC with a standard 480hp motor and see how it feels to you. I wanted super high hp and twin turbo at first coming from my 4cyl turbo years and thought it was great. Then I got a ride and was like, oh yah, that is good and fun. 2400lb car and it feels good. My personal goal is around 500hp at the wheel, so 550-600 at the crank and I think that is more than enough.

Now on that note though, a SC whine is a sexy sounding thing. Turbo BOV sound good also, NA screaming it additive as well so I am thinking it comes down to which one you feel will make you smile the most.

Troy, I did just as you mentioned a few months back. I had the opportunity to go for a very spirited ride around the small town of Juno Beach, in a LS376/525 hp powered SLC. To say that it was a brute, is clearly an understatement. That car pounded you in the back about as hard as any I had ever been in. Not to mention all the Camera Phones & Thumbs up over and over...

From my perspective, when I am making plans to spend what to me is a bit of a fortune on cool factor, I start to quiz myself (maybe a bit unnecessarily) as to whether I'm looking at the right sort of "cool" for me. I do know that when I build my SLC, it will have either an AMG-63 (N/A), or an LS7 (also more than likely N/A).

The LS7 has the power that i think works in the SLC. But the AMG offers that power in a different package. I'm a fan of Mercedes and I've always thought that the SLC would be a perfect platform to do something a little different.

My question was more or less aimed at potentially finding out if someone out there on the forum, could give some power adder insight that might work with my view of what I would want to build.

As I read this back, it's pretty obvious that I've already decided what I would like to build.

SLS AMG-63 M159 (New), dry sump, & stock exhaust manifolds. $25-$30k.
Motec M800 ECU 4k.
Graziano 6 spd, transaxle oil cooler, 10k (with slc purchase)
Paint, Interior, etc...

By the time I get it built, I will probably have about as much in it as I currently have in my GTM...

Kris · Oct 14, 2014

FWIW Mike: I have the M156 motor in a CLK63/BS and, though it's a bundle of fun, I'm somewhat dreading the day that extended warranty runs out. It's kin to the M159.

If you're looking to adjust the M159 here are some prices from a well-known tuner:
- forged pistons & billet rods: $6000
- head studs (ARP) $1000
- supercharger: $25000
- ported heads: $5000
- gasket kit: $900
- Headers: $7000

Not trying to sway you -- it's just a relatively expensive route

MB · Oct 14, 2014

Kris said:
FWIW Mike: I have the M156 motor in a CLK63/BS and, though it's a bundle of fun, I'm somewhat dreading the day that extended warranty runs out. It's kin to the M159.

If you're looking to adjust the M159 here are some prices from a well-known tuner:
- forged pistons & billet rods: $6000
- head studs (ARP) $1000
- supercharger: $25000
- ported heads: $5000
- gasket kit: $900
- Headers: $7000

Not trying to sway you -- it's just a relatively expensive route

Hi Kris,

I understood that the M159 was the fixed version of the M156 that was developed for the SLS-AMG. Forged Pistons & Rods, and Redesigned valve-train and cam.

The piston upgrade could set someone back 10K or better. (Weistech, I believe).

If I were to go the AMG route, I would not use a supercharger or turbos. I was only thinking of that for the LS engine.

Would you mind sending a PM with contact info for the tuner that you referenced. I would like to follow up with him.

Thanks,

Mike

Matt993 · Oct 14, 2014

Holy smokes, Mike! Having tracked an SLS, I'm excited :thumbsup: That would definitely be unique. Do you know if it fits in the SLC? I know space is limited and to my eye, the M159 looked pretty big.

trader · Oct 14, 2014

Listen it does NOT cost 20-30K for a twin turbo motor period. Just to prove a point Home . I almost pissed myself when I read what some people are paying for motors. Listen just go to LS1tech.com and spend some time in the FI section never look back.

trader · Oct 14, 2014

Crap for 21K you could have crate ls9 and just swap out the pullies and tune and you will be over 650hp all day long. I just don't understand how easily some of you are willing to part with your hard earned $. for 30K you BETTER have a billet block!!!!

MB · Oct 14, 2014

trader said:
Crap for 21K you could have crate ls9 and just swap out the pullies and tune and you will be over 650hp all day long. I just don't understand how easily some of you are willing to part with your hard earned $. for 30K you BETTER have a billet block!!!!

I guess one of the reasons that I'm not thinking about Superchargers, is the HP trade-off to build power, and the fact that I can't imagine having that thing sitting a foot from my right ear, whining away...

Part of my willingness to spend a little more, is simply to have what I want in the car. I am just trying to go through to pros and cons of some other things that I had not considered before now, to see if it makes sense to me to consider them now.

So far, I haven't heard to much that causes me to change my mind from normally aspirated horse power. Whether it comes from GM or MB is the question that I'm playing out, I guess. And AMG is winning that struggle as well.

Thanks,

Mike

MB · Oct 14, 2014

Matt993 said:
Holy smokes, Mike! Having tracked an SLS, I'm excited :thumbsup: That would definitely be unique. Do you know if it fits in the SLC? I know space is limited and to my eye, the M159 looked pretty big.

Hi Matt,

I have the same concerns as to how well it may or may not fit the standard SLC chassis. But I've spoken to Fran a couple of times (via PM) regarding the use of AMG &/or Ferrari engines. He says that some custom work can be done to allow it to fit, if necessary.

So when it gets closer to "Go Time", I'll have my ducks in a row as we figure out what will be necessary and what should work as is.

If I am able to make it happen, I think I'm going to do so. If not, then I'll be buying another LS something.

Thanks,

Mike

trader · Oct 14, 2014

If I am correct AMG went FI on it's current high hp motors

Trippingale · Nov 26, 2014

This post has brought to light some very interesting considerations for me, And since this thread has fallen dead for over a month I thought it would give it some life .
To get my SLC project moving and keeping things simple I went with a bone stock LS 376 , I ordered my SLC with the frame modified for a supercharger and being a natural Hot Rod enthusiast to leave the engine stock would be a cardinal sin. I have been looking at custom built LS 502 naturally aspirated engine producing power well past the the LS9 in the 700 to 800 Hp range. And was left with the quandary of whether to build the engine or go with aftermarket supercharging?
To my understanding both applications have pros and cons.
Supercharger: pros
1 Good low end street power
2 Once initial cost is invested, power upgrades are relatively easy with a change of pulley.
Supercharger: cons
1 Added weight
2 Extra plumbing for air to H2O cooler

Naturally Aspirated: pros
1 Looks really cool with Independent throttle bodies.
2 Idle sounds cool.
3 Lighter than supercharging.
4 Lower entry costs.
Naturally Aspirated: cons
1 Poor low end drivability for the street (1500-2500 rpm)
2 Expensive to upgrade for more power.
3 Engine life (valve train) long term maintenance costs.
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Lukespoprtsman · Nov 26, 2014

M113 upgraded to M155 specs would be a great sounding engine and provide cool street cred too. It's not near as expensive to rebuild or upgrade as the 63's, but you are giving up a lot of rpm, so it really depends on transaxle. (The hp numbers are moderate, but my 4 door on little 265's went 11.1 and will easily pull a stock 97GT3RS down a straight off a tight corner.)

If a Graz in order, I'd go NA and rev it. If you can spring for a Ric or GT2 transaxle, then lower rpm torque is more applicable.

To answer your question on turbo lag. I think the early 930's might have the throne...esp early upgrades on K27's with clipped tips and K29's on what have tested at 6.5:1 real compression 3.0-3.3l engines and miserable exh tech. No properly engineered single or twin turbo car should experience that if built correctly for street use. Your looking at compression levels of 9:1+, ceramic bb, billet impellers, better exhaust understanding, way better camshafts and typically twice the cubes.

Larry L. · Nov 26, 2014

Mike:

'Seems to me you might be well advised to decide FIRST what h.p. level you're after...THEN seek the best way to get there. JMHO...

E.g.: 700 N/A h.p. can be achieved W/O the 'big bux' needed to build a S/C or T.T. power plant. Proof? Check out this $23K, 700 h.p. 'solution':

Mast Motorsports LS7 427 Black Label Harrop (700hp)

'Just sayin'...

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

(And remember, Fran's RECORD SETTING - CHAMPIONSHIP SLC-C was powered by an engine that produced faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar less than 700 h.p.!)

Power Adder Expertise...

Michael

TSR

Troy

Fran Hall RCR

kris

Troy Truglio

Michael

kris

Michael

Matt K

Damian

Damian

Michael

Michael

Damian

TSR

Luke S

Larry L.

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