Heat and Sound Control - Simultaneously

The builders WIKI and several thread have reviewed techniques and products to control sound and heat. Correct me if I am wrong, but rightfully I beleive, heat and sound solutions seem to be treated predominately as separate issues (I presume since solutions seem to be independent). I have seen products such as Lizard Skin Ceramic, Eastwood has a two part spray, and Jegs shows several options, that attack heat and sound simultaneously.

They are a bit expensive, but if effective it could be worth it. On some areas of the car, aesthetics are a concern, and the liquid or spray applications may be rough, so may not be a product of choice. The Lava Shield type products may be more suitable for such cases. But for non aesthetic needs, has anyone used any of the multi purpose products with any success?
 
I used Dynamat products and have to say they are great at both sound and heat. Usually get some decent prices on Ebay. Some are leftovers and can be had for a good price. It won't be seen so you can piece it together.

Bill
 
The primary purpose of the Dynamat-like products is to turn vibration into heat. :) Actually, very little heat is generated, but they are effective at reducing vibration-induced sounds. Their reflective shiny surface is probably somewhat of a radiant barrier, but perversely is designed to be mounted in the interior of the car, where it presumably is effective in reflecting heat back to the occupants, instead of preventing it from getting into the cockpit in the first place. The darker variants from other manufacturers (a dull black instead of the shiny surface) are better at absorbing radiant heat.

Real heat insulation is the province of dedicated products designed to do just that. For example, Aeroquip Firesleeve is a great tool for keeping heat off shifter cables. The turbo blankets that DEI markets are great for keeping heat in the turbine. And while both Firesleeve and the turbo blankets have a very small effect on sound, their primary purpose, and effectiveness, is heat insulation.

Products like Lizard Skin are also largely dampening products that may have a relatively small effect in terms of stopping most kinds of heat transfer. A quick look at their webpage shows that even their claims for their LizardSkin CI product which includes "ceramic insulation particles" are without any information about the kind of heat they are supposed to reject. They are probably better at rejecting conductive heat, but like the mat products, are mostly a way to reduce panel-induced vibration noise.

There are different products that are optimized for different kinds of heat. For example, radiant heat barriers are often very reflective, and thin, like the popular gold foil seen in many of our cars. But these are relatively less effective against conduction or convective heat. Products like Firesleeve are not as good at rejecting radiant heat. That's why you sometimes need a combination of tools.

That's why it isn't as simple as just putting "insulation" on something- you really have to know what kind(s) of heat you are trying to manage. An example: My shifter cables are protected with several layers of insulation, with different kinds at different places, depending on the kind of heat the cables see at that point. There are places where the cables are exposed with no insulation at all, and a couple of places where they are encased in a combination of Firesleeve (to protect against mostly against convection and conduction) and a wrap of aluminized tape designed to reflect radiant heat. That combo seems to work really well, and my car shifts perfectly even in a heat soak situation. As many builders here know, at least one car has gone through several sets of cables until the right mix of routing and insulation was figured out to stop heat from melting the cable sleeves.

And finally, in my car, I have a fair amount of different kinds of insulation, each designed for a different kind of heat source. But I am finding, to my dismay, that a key part of a quiet SLC is probably more a function of sealing, rather than a focus on vibration reduction from tools like Dynamat. Allan U has done some good work in this area, fabricating sheetmetal seals between the body and chassis, as well as closing off the side tunnels at the front with similar aluminum and fiberglass seals there. These seem to make a noticeable difference.

Based on experience with my car and others, I'd say the most important thing is to protect vital parts first, use insulation to keep the passenger compartment insulated from heat and sounds second, and worry about panel-sourced vibration a distant last. The kinds of amounts of noise that Dynamat is effective in solving in production cars is a very small part of the noise and heat equation for our cars.
 
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I looked up Heatshield Products db Armor Lightweight Sound Deadeners. Supposed to be 20% lighter and 3x more effective. It's not cheap, but not terribly expensive either. Summit seems to have the best price. Has anyone used it?



 
Interior I use a combo of "dynamat" (there is many different types with the main difference I have found is thickness, and price) as the first layer, then some jute carpet padding/insulation on firewalls, and floors. Use two layers of "dynamat" on large flat panels as they will be harder to deaden. While the foil on them will have some heat reflective value, but it's main purpose is to vibrate at a different frequency than the thin rubber layer, and that cancels out the noise along with the absorbent characteristics of the rubber itself.
Will hit the nail on the head by saying air leaks will be your most common point of noise intrusion. No insulating materials and no air leaks will be quieter than tons of insulation and air leaks.
The main problem I see is that for deadening materials, weight can be an issue. they are heavy in bulk and there is no way around it. I like the jute insulation as it is lighter and alot more effective in heat absorbsion and stopping both high and mid range frequencies well over what an adhesive or paint on type deadener can achieve, per weight.
I won't go back through what Will said, but ya, some products are made for different purposes. During your build you need to constantly look at the heat being produced by a part, and parts that you need to keep heat out of. Your exhaust you need to plan for up to 1800 degrees and make shields for plastic parts or shifter cables or wiring nearby. Coolant lines can see 250 degrees. Fuel lines you want as cool as possible, so you will be looking for heat sleeve on those types of things.
If you have questions during the build, just post up what you are doing and plenty of knowledge here to point you in the right direction.
 
Mine isn't just Dynamat but a combination like Scott's. On large flat surfaces like the firewall you have to be careful how you lay it out. I used mainly Dynamat with the foil backing behind the seats. This surface does not get hot when driving at any outside temps so far. I think it is more like the flat roofs and how they are built. The tar like substance has a lot of time before the temps soak through. On the interior surfaces I used the combination of Jute and Dynamat. I once drove my car with the front firewall upper piece missing and man did it get hot from the radiator. Once put back on it made a great difference I think what Will has brought up are very valid points. Fixing air intrusion is something I have done with my car and it has paid off very well.

Bill
 
Wow...so much to learn and figure out. Car finally arrives tomorrow so the build can start. I have read twice about Allens seals he built....can not seem to find them...clues?

I plan to make my plan this weekend and make my list of ancillary parts I will need for a mass order. As part of that plan I will take you up "asking" what works best where.

Thanks
 
The engine sits near your ears just behind the cockpit. That means:
  • Noise control is a challenge you work into the entire build, not just some insulation that is added at the end.
  • Very little heat is "radiated" from the engine compartment into the cockpit. Some heat insulation is a good idea ,but not a lot is needed.
The things that heat up the cockpit are:
  • Heat from the front mounted radiator - The heated exit air can warm the aluminum foot well if it is not guided upward over the windshield. There isn't much you can do about heat conducted thru the windshield, but at least you won't need a defroster!
  • Coolant line in the side pods - There are lots of opinions about what to do with the coolant lines. Just use simple cushion clamps (with rubber liners) and mount the clamps with a spacer to leave an air space between the tubes and aluminum chassis and then insulate with plumbing pipe foam.
  • Hot air infiltration - This is actually one of the most significant heat sources to control. When driving, the engine compartment has a higher air pressure than the cockpit, so all that hot air travels forward into the cabin. So block off the side pods, fill every little hole in the firewall, and fill in any gaps between the body and firewall.
 
Gents

Lots of excellent insight to this issue.

How well does Allens seals help? I have watched a lot of his videos but must have missed this topic. Is there data on his seals out there?

Good put on the jute as another tool in the Arsenal. Time to take all the data here and matrix it all into a cohesive strategy........great feedback

Thanks
 
How about using aerogels to insulate from heat, since weight is a problem? Aerogels are among the lightest substances known.

Here is an example: BuyAerogel.com | Airloy® X114 High-Temperature Strong Aerogel Tiles

Some salespeak from the website:

"Airloy™ X110 series materials from Aerogel Technologies are the world’s first commercially-available polyimide aerogels. Airloy X110 materials are mechanically robust high-temperature aerogels with the strength to stand up to real-world applications. Airloy X114 comes in densities up to three times lighter than plastics and is a great alternative to Airloy X103 where higher temperatures are required. (Airloy X103 is somewhat stronger and stiffer at comparable density, however limited to 80°C). Impervious to contact with moisture and liquid water. Dust-free. Machinable and adherable. Thermally superinsulating with a conductivity between classic silica aerogels and Styrofoam<sup>®</sup>. Maximum operating temperature is ~300°C. Color is red-brown. Dimensions are approximately 1.8″ x 2.5″ x 0.3″ (4.6 cm x 6.4 cm x 0.7 cm).
"Airloys are sold by density. Properties such as strength and stiffness increase with increasing density, while thermal conductivity decreases with decreasing density. Airloy X103 properties scale with density approximately as follows:
<table class="cut-to-size-table"><tbody><tr> <td>Density Class</td> <td>Density</td> <td>Compressive Strength<sup>a</sup></td> <td>Compressive Modulus<sup>a</sup></td> <td>Ultimate Yield Strength<sup>a</sup></td> <td>Thermal Conductivity<sup>a</sup></td> </tr> <tr> <td>H</td> <td>0.4 ± 0.02 g/cc</td> <td>3 MPa</td> <td>113 MPa</td> <td>167 MPa</td> <td>32 mW/m-K</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
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