SLC Infotainment Option

[Dave Forster]

As everyone knows, the options for installing navigation and audio electronics in the SLC are somewhat limited due to the small amount of available space.

Most car equipment is 6-7" deep, which makes it tough for a center-dash installation.

It is possible to install bluetooth-enabled amplifiers under the dash (or wherever), but all of the ones I have found do not have L-R balance controls and only a few have faders.

However, there is a new product from Dual http://www.dualav.com/marineaudio/meq15bt.php
which looks promising. It is a remote-mountable, bluetooth enabled box that accepts a bluetooth signal, converts it from digital to analog (DAC) and then passes it through an equalizer before delivering the output to a standard amplifier. The equalizer, including balance and fader, is controlled from the smartphone using free Apple or Android software. This opens up the possibility of using a smartphone (or other bluetooth device) as the sole source of music and audio control and keeps everything off the dash.

However, a smartphone could be easily integrated into a powered center dash mount, kind of like the commonly available portable docking stations. This would provide many (all?) of the benefits of Android Auto (or Apple CarPlay) without the need to install bulky equipment, albeit with the limitation of the screen size of the smartphone itself.

I'm thinking of placing a couple of 6" speakers in the door panels and two 3" speakers in the front dash and building a phone mount or modifying something commercially available to fit the center space, then tying it all together with the Dual SmartEQ and an amplifier (model TBD).

What do you guys think?

 

[Roger]

Sounds like a reasonable solution. I expect that you could also use a tablet, if you want a larger screen. That unit looks to only take a single stereo input, so you couldn't use a head unit's fader, but you're not planning to do that.

I tend to prefer wired connections, but I'm sure that Bluetooth will be fine.

 

[Will Campbell]

Stage7's approach to audio is similar to what the OP has proposed. His car has a BT module connected to an amp and speakers. Very simple in concept, and wonderfully executed.

The advantage of this kind of audio is that it's all mostly hidden, and that the controls that are needed on already on the phone (or iPod or similar device), and can be updated frequently as technology or preferences change.

 

[Grant S]

Parrot asteroid Tablet does everything, Rear view, GPS, hands free, bluetooth, WIFI, Music, engine data display and it all fits into the dash and you can add Icons.

 

[Bill]

I've scoured the web for solutions to the infotainment dilemma. I went with an android tablet and reconfigured it to do everything a high end infotainment system does. The 2 Achilles heel of the tablet approach is its battery:

• Battery power - Tablets need at least a partially charged battery to operate. Its easy to connect a USB charger directly to 12VDC, but it will kill the car battery in about a week. One solution is to put a time delay relay on the charger to keep the charger on for an hour or 2. Then occasionally flip the key to start the charge cycle.
• Battery Temperature switch - Tablets use lithium batteries and they are very sensitive to heat, in fact they will self-combust if they get too hot. As a result, tablets put temperature sensors in their battery to shut off power if it gets too warm. The problem is that a the interior of a closed up car in the summer sun may trip the temperature sensor. Due to the heat problem, I'm now looking for a new approach.

In the past year, a new category of infotainment head units are hitting the market. The "Digital Media" heads omit the CD player (that no one uses anymore) and allows AV manufacturers to breakout of the traditional bulky 1DIN/2DIN square box form factor.

• The Parrot Smart was one of the first Digital Media head units. The Parrot Smart is about half the depth of a traditional 1DIN/2DIN, but it was still a bit to deep to fit flush in my SLC dash.
• The new Apline iLX-007 Digital Media head unit recently hit the market and is only 3" deep, so it should fit flush with the dash. It has a 7" touch screen with rear view camera capability.

If you want a clean dash and simple operation, hide an audio amp and a Bluetooth receiver behind a panel. A "Buttonless" Universal Bluetooth Receiver like this JL Audio MBT-RX pairs with your personal phone automatically. Then your phone is your head unit:

• Recorded music via MP3 player, Pandora, Spotify, etc
• Radio via TuneIn
• Navigation and traffic via Google Maps, Waze, etc
• Weather via WeatherBug
• Travel info via Yelp, GasBuddy, etc.

This is also a new trend with car manufacturers who are pulling function out of their head units and depending more upon the functions in the driver's personal phone.

 

[Scott Rowland]

What someone needs to make, is a remote screen option, for a regular 2 din style head unit. All it takes is a plug into the screen, and a plug to head unit. I have had numerous cars where this would have solved the problem.
I have gone so far to call Kenwood and ask them to make a longer ribbon wire strip that carries all the signals from the touch screen to the main unit, so I could mount the screen separately. They were of no help.
If someone has any connections in that field to make ribbon strip connector ends, I would be in debt for life! There is just too many connections to try to solder your own and too small.
I have also tried using tablets in other vehicles. It ended up never getting used because of all the navigating it takes to control it while driving. Plus, at start up, you have to turn it on, wait for it to boot, then navigate through it to even get the first song playing. Sounds simple with an ounce of patience, but that is not me. Lol.

I used to do competition car stereo years ago, and did very well at it. So the rest of the system placement, speaker choice, enclosures, and crossovers I can help for those interested. It really is an art if you want audiophile sound quality, even if you can only hear it when the car is off.
Believe it or not, the SLC has a great layout to have incredible imaging, and able to get the bass image coming from in front of you too, which is what you want. Speakers behind you are only to replicate the sound waves bouncing off walls behind you, not to create a noticable volume.
I personally modified the center area to fit a full 2 din unit. Not for everyone for sure, as I did much structural work to bypass the frame load in a collision (and still have a little more to go once working on inside), but it was that important to me to have a unit in there I would use and not give me headaches. Besides, I had a full optioned Kenwood deck sitting around.

 

[Grant S]

Parrot asteroid Tablet, lol it fits, it works, it does it all.

 

[kris]

FWIW: seems to me the regular head-unit is going the way of the dinosaur ... why would anyone want a poor replica of a smart-phone or tablet, with limited upgrade path, stuffed into a dashboard? Instead, it would seem more effective to install a decent DAC+amp+speakers and call it done.

I prefer a physical volume-knob in a car, so something like this would be my first choice to mount nearby: Audiophile quality music in your car - Apogee ONE DAC

Alternatives might include the Dragonfly DAC, perhaps combined with a powered USB hub.

With that installed it's just a case of finding a suitable means of mounting your phone/tablet and hooking it to the DAC (the apogee is convenient for iOS devices). With mainstream map-software now supporting downloadable maps (Google Maps, Nokia Here, etc) you won't be using your cellular data-plan either.

2c

 

[Scott Rowland]

I am very particular about sound quality and imaging. If using just a tablet, I would run the signal through this.Clarion EQS755 Car Audio 7 Band Graphic Equalizer with 3 5mm Aux in EQS 755 | eBay

While it may appear to be a dated piece of equipment, it is not. It takes the signal and cleans it up, gives better stereo separation, and better depth, for pretty cheap. You would control your volume via knob on this unit, not the tablet. You can also set some basic crossover bandwidths. Then you will be sending a very clean (109 s/n ratio rated on it iirc) signal to your amps up to 8v. Most equipment will be sending under 4v, more likely 2v. This allows it to take a crap signal from a source, where you turn your volume level up to maybe 30% (where it is still clean and not distorted), and this unit cleans up and ramps up the voltage, making it so your gains can also be low on the amps. This will gain you more db, without distortion. Can explain further/better if anyone is interested.
I did the stereo in my off road RZR1000 a year ago with it. Since I needed a waterproof unit, I chose a Dual Audio marine round gauge mount unit. The Dual output signal is crap, and this cleaned up the signal to audiophile grade. Chose mid cost range Hertz 6.5 components (no 2/3way 6x9's!) in enclosures (enclose every speaker air tight, from a 3" on up) in the front, and a 10" sub in back. In this arrangement, and being literally like a stereo playing outside, it has nearly perfect imaging, tons of depth, very rich, and clear once you properly set up your gains and crossovers.

I have not personally tried a bt connection to an amp before, but it is mostly designed for quick installs, albeit you still need to get power to it. I am not sure how the signal may change or be altered in the process, so I chose rca or optical connections over it.

 

[PeteB]

I've got that exact equalizer, connected through a Himbox bluetooth dongle: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/iClever-Bluetooth-Hands-Free-Multi-Point-Activation/dp/B00GJFGE0K]Amazon.com: iClever Himbox HB01 Bluetooth 4.0 Hands-Free Car Kit with 3.5mm Aux Jack, Multi-Point Access, Siri / Voice Activation, Dual USB Charger & Magnetic Base, Updated Aluminum Ring - Black: Cell Phones & Accessories[/ame]

Sounds ok when I connect my ipod directly to the equalizer, but it's really tinny when connected through the bluetooth. I used the same bluetooth dongle in my daily driver for a while and it worked fine. I'm thinking about replacing the equalizer with a regular single DIN head unit that has bluetooth built in.

 

[Scott Rowland]

I've got that exact equalizer, connected through a Himbox bluetooth dongle: Amazon.com: iClever Himbox HB01 Bluetooth 4.0 Hands-Free Car Kit with 3.5mm Aux Jack, Multi-Point Access, Siri / Voice Activation, Dual USB Charger & Magnetic Base, Updated Aluminum Ring - Black: Cell Phones & Accessories

Sounds ok when I connect my ipod directly to the equalizer, but it's really tinny when connected through the bluetooth. I used the same bluetooth dongle in my daily driver for a while and it worked fine. I'm thinking about replacing the equalizer with a regular single DIN head unit that has bluetooth built in.

What are you using for amps and speakers?

 

[Scott Rowland]

About the best bang for the buck in a single din I have seen is this one. Audiophile internals and output signal in a smaller package. Cheap too.

Pioneer DEH 80PRS Bluetooth Car Audio Stereo Receiver USB MP3 Radio CD Player 884938151986 | eBay

One good way to rate nearly any type of audio equipment (since there is no mandated rating system in place) is to look at the signal to noise ratio number (s/n). Under 90, and throw it away. 90-95, will be fine for most. 95-100, comparable to a high end factory system like Mercedes, Aston, etc. 100-110, competition grade. In your head unit output, eq, crossovers, amps, and speakers will all have this rating. Speakers are a little trickier to gauge quality as there output at 1w will be determined by how stiff the suspension is, making the number lower. Stiffer suspension, and it will typically have a higher wattage handling and be able to return to rest quicker, cleaning up the sound.
Quality of your rcas, and making sure they never cross a powered line (never zip tie your rcas to the power line!) all make a huge difference in feedback and sound quality.

 

[kris]

I am very particular about sound quality and imaging. If using just a tablet, I would run the signal through this.Clarion EQS755 Car Audio 7 Band Graphic Equalizer with 3 5mm Aux in EQS 755 | eBay

Good one Scott; combining that with something like a Dragonfly DAC would be a great solution for phone/tablet audio

 

[Bill]

I also looked for a head unit with a separate remote touch screen. I found a unit on DX.com from LsqSTAR for a Peugeot 508. It's a Chinese unit with a remote 7" Touch Screen, Nav, AM, FM, AUX, rear view camera capability, etc. Its only $320USD.

I submitted some simple questions to DX.com customer service. Although their Chinese to English skills seemed ok, it was clear that they were just an answering service with no product knowledge.

A key question was that the on-screen controls didn't seem to include a volume control. So is an external volume toggle switch needed (not a big deal) or does the unit depend upon the CAN BUS in the Peugeot 508 (big deal).

Bottom-line, I decided not to buy it...

 

[Scott Rowland]

I have purchased a similar unit to that. Sound quality was that of a tin can and a string. Nearly zero stereo separation and distortion at anything above low volume.
Kenwood has a flip up screen single din, that is much better. I think it is the KVT series.

Sorry, thought it was a flip up screen and attached. There is another chinese variant that has a flip down screen. Stay away from it! The units and the interfaces they put effort into (to be able to sell them), but the processors inside are trash (once you get them). One reason you can't find specs on most of the chinese units like that.

 

[PeteB]

What are you using for amps and speakers?

Amp: Clarion Mobile Electronics XC1410 D-Class 4-Channel Amplifier [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B43LKV0?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B43LKV0?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00[/ame]

Speakers: Front - Pioneer TS-D1320C 5.25-Inch Rev-Series 180-Watt Speaker Package [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013BNZDE?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013BNZDE?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00[/ame]

Rear - BOSS BP6.8 6.5" 600W Mid-Bass/Mid-range Car Audio Speakers Drivers BP68 [ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IMIG6VO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IMIG6VO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00[/ame]

 

[Scott Rowland]

Found your problem right here with your amp Pete.

Power Output:
　75W × 4 RMS (2Ω@14.4V≤1% THD+N)
　50W × 4 RMS (4Ω@14.4V≤1% THD+N)
Signal to Noise Ratio:
　80dB (Ref; 1W into 4Ω)




s/n ratio is about as good as an alarm clock at 80, and that was measured at 4ohm. 1% distortion at 50w is massive at 4ohm. The numbers should be more in the 0.001% at such a small wattage level. My guess is it has about a 10A fuse in it?
Since there is no regulation to how an amp is labeled for its wattage, one way of telling it's actual wattage visually is by looking at the recommended fuse size. If you see a 100w rated amp, with 50A recommended fuses (usually 2-25's), you will almost always be looking at a robust piece of equipment.

I still love the old school stuff. This was one of the cheater amps I used in competition. Phoenix Gold MPS 2240 Car Amplifier RARE Old Amp Cheater Legend | eBay
Rated at 2x24w, to classify as a 48 watt amp. Yet, it could run easily at 1/4ohm and below. Hooking up 6 pairs of speakers in parallel and dropping it to that ohm load, it would put out an astounding 700-800watts. At distortion levels still in the .0x range. This amp would also run in tri-linear mode. Meaning you could have speakers wired + and - L&R, plus bridge for a center channel or sub to sum the signals by hooking up other speakers L+ and R- on the same channels. Brilliant piece of equipment!!
At one point, I had a 100w version of this, and a 150w version of this, and competed in the ultra competitive 151-250w class. The 100w ran 13 speakers in total (out of two channels) and the 150w version ran 4-18" and 4-12" in a clamshell isoteric arrangement. The 18's blew from over extention. This was in a hatchback '96 Celica, Haha. Sunroof would lift, rear window flex, windshield wipers jumping, rear view mirror unusable, ya, with 250 rated watts.

Dampening factor is also a good number to look at for amps. A good piece of equipment will be 200 or over. If you start looking at Mcintosh and older Nakimichi, you will see it at 1000! This is it's ability to keep the signal clean inbetween the peaks. Clarity is very noticable.
In the world of car audio, you really get what you pay for. The spread is not quite as far as it used to be with what was new technology getting cheaper, but I have yet to see anything new comparing to the U.S. made amps 25 years ago.


Your speakers are ok to a certain point. I always put any speaker outside of a tweeter, in a sealed enclosure. If you get it 100% sealed (volume has to be correct tho) then you will gain a ton of lower frequencies from it, a way flatter frequency response from it, and a force gets generated inside the enclosure. Speaker fires out, it creates a low pressure, to make it return to center faster and vice versa when going in. This gains you alot of high db clarity and can raise the watt handling quite abit since speaker is not allowed to move in free air maxing out suspension.
Yours would be really helped by an enclosure, but there is no way to seal it air tight based on the centering post in the middle that is used to help the cone from distorting and the voice coil from hitting the magnet. A blown speaker is simply an overheated voice coil that is hitting the magnet, hence the scratchy sound if you physically move the cone in and out by hand.

Your 6.5's are going to really overpower your front stage, unless you have them crossed over to play about 200hz and below. What a good sound stage is trying to replicate (in both home and car audio) is the image that you are standing front row at your favorite bands concert. So, you want the image coming from in front.

You guys just let me know if you want me to continue, we are just at the tip of the iceberg and don't want to bore everyone, Haha.

 

[Scott Rowland]

This was another beast. Rated at 100watts. You can see what I mean about not having a regulated scale for what manufacturers can put on their amp for amp ratings when you look at it compared to the advertised 300w of the Clarion you have.
This is a smoking deal on this thing. But, by itself will draw 200+amps maxed out which means 300+amp alt, dual batteries, and you still want probably 5 farad worth of quick discharge capacitors inline on it. Not for the meek.

Orion 425HCCA Amplifier High Current Old School Legend Very RARE Model | eBay

The MPS series amp above would be in the 115 s/n ratio range, and the Orion about 110 s/n iirc.

 

[Roger]

This was another beast. Rated at 100watts. You can see what I mean about not having a regulated scale for what manufacturers can put on their amp for amp ratings when you look at it compared to the advertised 300w of the Clarion you have.
This is a smoking deal on this thing. But, by itself will draw 200+amps maxed out

A draw of 200A RMS would equate to 2.4kW (@ 12V, so likely more). That seems way too high. Their manual states 70A maximum draw, which I would suspect is peak, so ~50A RMS.

and you still want probably 5 farad worth of quick discharge capacitors inline on it.

I think that you meant in parallel.

As you've pointed-out, there is a massive difference in quality between amplifiers. There is also a tendency to quote misleading numbers - buyer beware. Compact amps can be very poor. I have an Alpine PDX-V9, which is quite good for its size, and gives more than enough power and channels for me.

 

[Scott Rowland]

A draw of 200A RMS would equate to 2.4kW (@ 12V, so likely more). That seems way too high. Their manual states 70A maximum draw, which I would suspect is peak, so ~50A RMS.

I think that you meant in parallel.

As you've pointed-out, there is a massive difference in quality between amplifiers. There is also a tendency to quote misleading numbers - buyer beware. Compact amps can be very poor. I have an Alpine PDX-V9, which is quite good for its size, and gives more than enough power and channels for me.

Ok, ok, maybe i went abit high on guessing the amp draw, but they also did not state at what ohm that draw was from. 4ohm, or the 1/2ohm it can run at. Drop the ohm load, and power output and draw go up. I would not run less than a 125a fuse on it and 4ga fine strand power wire.

The caps would be run in series ( if wiring multiple caps) on your battery lead to the amp. But, you can obviously get caps in many different sizes. I have used single caps with 2 farads, and also many 1/2 farad caps in series to create 7 farad total. It is just to fill in the peaks on your bass.

Edit- here is a drawing of a multiple cap install. Not sure if you would call it parallel, or series, or a combo of both.
http://www.caraudiohelp.com/car_audio_capacitor_installation.html