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Old 13th July 2012, 04:49 PM   #1
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Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

This weekend the Dutch Historic Championship will be held at the Dutch TT circuit, famous for it's World Championship Motorbike event, and chassis 1023 will be raced there as well.

These pictures were taken today at free practice and also show two Corvette Grand Sports. Thought you might like to see them.

John
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Old 13th July 2012, 05:32 PM   #2
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

I seem to recall a thread elsewhere on this forum where this red car is described as a Superformance car rather than the genuine article. It does appear to have SPF characteristics (exhaust etc.)

Does anybody else remember that thread?

I think the Gran Sport Corvettes are SPF replicas as well.

http://www.superformance.com/corvette.aspx
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Old 15th July 2012, 05:37 PM   #3
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

Don't know about this particular car. I was told by the owner that this is the ex-Alan Mann Racing GT40 number 1. He has owned the car since 1981 and is still racing the car in Europe.

John
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Old 15th July 2012, 05:40 PM   #4
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

We did have a look under the front bonnet this afternoon and it has what looked to me the original chassis plate stating GT40 P 1023 and another plate from Alan Mann stating number 1. Unfortunately I do not have a picture that shows the chassis plate or plate from Alan Mann, but a friend took some pictures with his mobile phone.

John
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Old 16th July 2012, 02:29 AM   #5
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

Sbarro 2079/1023 Coys Padua Oct 23
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Old 16th July 2012, 08:20 AM   #6
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

The Grand Sports are not SPFs, the first street production cars are just coming off the line now, the comp cars are build by Duntov Motorsports rather than at Port Elizabeth.

The GT40 does not have some of the SPF features, the steering rack is different and some other small details make it something other than a Superformance. I hear there there was some outfit called Ford/FAV that built some of these a while back......................
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Old 16th July 2012, 05:11 PM   #7
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

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Originally Posted by Mike Drew View Post
I seem to recall a thread elsewhere on this forum where this red car is described as a Superformance car rather than the genuine article. It does appear to have SPF characteristics (exhaust etc.)
Last year the owner was black flagged at this circuit for noise regulations, so he had to do something about that this year. So he had this exhaust fitted.

For sure Ronnie Spain will be able to shed some light on this subject. I saw in his book the car was sold to France in 1982 through David Cottingham, I was told by the German owner he has had the car.

Although new to the GT40 world I have been around the historic world for many years so I do know about people claiming certain chassis numbers and identities. I also appreciate owners who still race these cars in competition and in the wet. It was a joy to see and hear the car in action slicing through traffic and I understand a competition car that is still being used might have lost some of it's original components. Thanks for the owner for sharing his GT40!

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I think the Gran Sport Corvettes are SPF replicas as well.
Nope. These are two continuation cars build and numbered with permission from GM by the person who has the rights for Europe. The road versions will be done by Superformance and have nothing to do with these racers.

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Old 16th July 2012, 05:25 PM   #8
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

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The Grand Sports are not SPFs, the first street production cars are just coming off the line now, the comp cars are build by Duntov Motorsports rather than at Port Elizabeth.
These two racers were built in The Netherlands by Tachyon.

John
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Old 16th July 2012, 10:41 PM   #9
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

Hi,

We’re talking about two different cars here, which seems a bit unclear so far.

As yet we don’t know whether it is the genuine GT40 P/1023 which is due at the weekend or the currently (I think) yellow Sbarro-built car which periodically still gets referred to as 1023, despite having nothing whatsoever to do with it, and despite having been long acknowledged by a number of its own, 2079. For now we can ignore the fact that when it was sold new by Sbarro it was claimed to be GT40 P/1039, the car which had burned at Monza. As should be well known by now, as far as I am concerned everything has a right to exist for what it is, but nothing has any right to exist for what it is not. So right from the get go, with Sbarro selling this car claiming it to be an original Ford GT40, it was therefore a fake Ford from day one, rather than a genuine Sbarro. Next we have the further minor glitch that not only was it not GT40 P/1039 which Sbarro had sold, but it was not even GT40 P/1039 which had been the car which had had the fire at Monza. That car had been GT40 P/1040, a car which Sbarro had actually owned, but had already long ago disposed of before he built this car and claimed it to his customer as being the burnt Monza car. And I digress here, but it has to be done, because Sbarro also claimed to David Piper when he sold him the chassis of GT40 P/1033, though not claiming any particular chassis number, that it was the car which had burnt at Monza. This, despite him at that time actually being the owner of the actual Monza car, GT40 P/1040. But we’re not finished yet. Many years after Sbarro sold David Piper 1033, I had occasion to call David up about something – incredibly – not GT40 related. Once that part of the call was over, David asked if I were still involved with GT40s, and when I said I was, he told me he was in the process of marketing a GT40 to a friend in America. I, naturally, asked what car it was, and David told me, “Franco Sbarro’s going to sell me the burnt out Monza car”. !?!?!? So I reminded him that that was what he had told me Sbarro had claimed the last GT40 he had sold him had been. So Christ knows what that damn car was, but even by Sbarro’s “standards” it was about 5 chassis removed from any chance of having been what Sbarro was claiming it as.

End of digression. Back to the details of this forum thread.

And so while we wait to find out if it is indeed 1023 which is heading for the Netherlands Historics or the Sbarro fake “1023”, let’s switch attention to Mr.Stummeyer’s red and gold car.

And as none of you will be surprised to learn, it has absolutely hee-haw to do with Alan Mann’s lightweight AM GT-1. You may find this hard to believe, but similarly to how Pierre Bos has laughably modified his Sbarro fake “1040” to try to incorporate some of the correct details which I have been pointing out for years that his car was totally devoid of (none of the modifications, by the way, having been done anything like correctly, so what was the damn point???), Georg Stummeyer’s “AM GT-1”, which he claims to have owned since 1981, is a Mark V which he in fact bought in 1993, not 1981, which has had modifications carried out to try to tart it up and fool people into actually believing it is a Ford GT40. It is not Alan Mann’s lightweight AM GT-1. It is a feebly-modified mark V.

How long have I known it was a mark V? About 3 hours!

I had long known Stummeyer to have been involved with two Mark Vs, but though I also knew absolutely that whatever the car he was claiming as AM GT-1 was nothing of the kind, I did not know until today, thanks to John’s photos, that underneath the façade of Stummeyer’s fatuous claims to AM GT-1 was still the Mark V he was racing beforehand! [I have to cover myself at this point and say that for all I know it could, though extremely unlikely, be a different Mark V, but Mark V it is.] I have found loads of photos on the Internet of the car, but very few have shown the chassis even to the slightest extent, and even those few photos have been posted at far too small a size to be able to see anything that helped. I even saw the car race at the Nurburgring OGP in 2009, and I never got the chance to see any details. I did get to see it race, and by God he races it well. It looked and sounded fantastic. But I knew it wasn’t AM GT-1. AM GT-1 has been owned by Rex Myers since 1982, and should very soon be emerging from restoration by Racing Icons, who were responsible for the outstanding restoration of Mark IIB GT40 P/1047, which put in an appearance at the Le Mans Classic on its way home to Japan. Wish I could have been there to see it!

Anyway, now, however, thanks to John’s photos, I know the truth, which hopefully the following few photos will illustrate well enough. I’m using John’s photo of the front of the chassis followed by a photo of the first Mark V, GT40 P/1090, then John’s photo of the left front suspension followed by a photo of one of the early Mark Vs. In each pair of photos I have circled (or “rectangled”) just the main Mark V elements visible.

It astonishes me that he can think that by adding roughly GT40-type front structure, and by adding exceedingly inaccurate pseudo-genuine-GT40 curved structure and side panels up in front of the screen, that he turn his car from a Mark V into a Mark I. I consider this kind of crap to be extremely insulting!

Between his ridiculous fiddling around on his fake AM GT-1, the similar farfing of Pierre Bos on his fake 1040, last year’s appearance at Nurburgring of a fake 1029, the fake 1041 (also, I think, a mark V), the fake 111 allegedly rebuilt as a coupe in white and blue…….etc., etc!

When is all this crap ever going to stop?

Answers on a postcard please……


Ronnie Spain
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Old 17th July 2012, 03:27 AM   #10
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

Hello Ronnie. I now have an early morning headache! I'll have to reread this thread, take notes, cross refer, then perhaps the bulb will light! I love these "who dunit" stories and always find your research most fascinating and worthy.

Why do people undertake this crap?

Because of two reasons relating to money:-

1. Money, or the lack of it, meaning those of us who would dearly love a period original GT40, have to make do with replicas, or perhaps, undertake what I am doing i.e. by reconstructing a lot of period original parts, using as many old, tired, but repairable GT40 spares as is humanly possible to use.

2. Money, as in greed, meaning people are willing to criminally defraud others by saying their GT40 is something it's not. Hence I am hoping my P/1042 will be described in Ronnie's new book as something it is i.e. a reconstruction of period original parts and thus, put it's unique nature down in black & white to prevent future potential for fraud by the less scrupulous.

Best Wishes and thank you... Andrew
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Old 17th July 2012, 06:21 AM   #11
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie Spain View Post
Hi,

We’re talking about two different cars here, which seems a bit unclear so far.

As yet we don’t know whether it is the genuine GT40 P/1023 which is due at the weekend or the currently (I think) yellow Sbarro-built car which periodically still gets referred to as 1023,
Hi Ronnie,

Thanks for your reply.

Since I started this topic I can say we are talking about GT40 P/1023 (claimed by the owner) and NOT the Sbarro car. That car was mentioned by someone else.

The pictures indeed show the car you later described in your chassis research as a Mark V. I never mentioned the owners name, as I tried to be discrete about that.

Original or not, it was great watching the car in action and in the dry it really flew past all the others, including the Corvette Grand Sport with 550 hp+.

I sent you a pm as well.

John
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Last edited by John S; 17th July 2012 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 17th July 2012, 10:02 AM   #12
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

John,

I very much appreciate that you were deliberately being delicate in not naming the car's owner, but as soon as an owner decides to lie about what his car is, then he negates the right to any respect he might have had before, and certainly does not deserve delicate treatment.

I couldn't agree more with you that the car is wonderful to see in full flight, and the fact that it sounds magnificent is not even open for debate. More power to his elbow that he keeps the car in such competitive fom, and that he drives it so well. But as soon as you lie about a car, you don't add to its kudos, you destroy it. His car is a Mark V. He knows his car is a Mark V. So any problems that come his way because of the lies that he claims on its behalf as being true, well, he has nobody but himself to blame.

Alan Mann lightweight AM GT-1 has belonged to Rex in Indiana for over 30 years, and very soon will emerge from Racing Icons fully restored.

Georg Stummeyer's car has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with AM GT-1, and by claiming so, he is deceiving the spectators who watch him race the car, not to mention those owners of genuine Ford GT40s he will oft times race against.

Why can't people be happy with what they have, instead of making up false claims to try to make their cars - or is it themselves - seem more important?

Anyway, have a great time at the Historics at the weekend.


Ronnie Spain
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Old 17th July 2012, 10:51 AM   #13
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

I'm supprised that I have not noticed this before, the MarkV tubs are very plain, and simplified compared to the Original tubs or even the SPF tubs.
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Old 17th July 2012, 11:30 AM   #14
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

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I'm supprised that I have not noticed this before, the MarkV tubs are very plain, and simplified compared to the Original tubs or even the SPF tubs.
And the MK V uprights front and rear are nothing like the FAV units. If you have ever been around a MK V (and I have, P1116) it is very easy to distiguish from an Abbey/Tennant tub.

Sad that despite having a grreat car in the MK V, people must still boost their egos/wallets with a load of crap.
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Old 17th July 2012, 04:31 PM   #15
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

Wow! I never set out to dishonoust anyone, it was purely enthousiasm why I posted the pictures. I was jumping up and down seeing the car and showing it to my 8 year old at our local circuit.

Having met the owner last year at the same event I knew he was coming back this year and since I am thinking of buying a Superformance I wanted to discuss the possibilities of having a Superformance road registered overhere and getting the FIA HTP papers for it. Since he has helped other owners with that I took the opportunity to ask him all I wanted to know. He was indeed very kind and offered to help me out.

We discussed his two original cars and his Superformance and he showed all the FIA paperwork. There was nothing secretive about it and we could take pictures of all the details. This in itself I really wanted to do to compare it with a Superformance chassis. So for me I had no reason to doubt anything that was claimed.

Personally, I don't have any problem owning a GT40 like this and you can still race it and use it as intended. Original cars are simply becoming too valuable to race in anger, one should even be careful showing the car on parade laps these days as a Ferrari 250 GTO owner can confirm.
Apart from that competition cars get damaged sometimes (or completely destroyed) and need to be repaired, just as in the old days. So far for origninality.
Having studied the history of the other F-marque since 1986 and having written for international magazines on these cars for 17 years I know my way around these cars. Many reputable owners have the original chassis hanging on the wall and are racing good copies. Even people like Jurgen Barth (Porsche) don't have a problem with people converting cars into racers according to the original homologation specs. How else do you get these beautiful starting grids all around the world? Nothing wrong with that.
However, claiming something that is not true is something else of course.

Still like the movie I have in my head watching this particular car slicing through traffic though from virtually last to first. I can still see the car accelerating away from the Grand Sport on the back straight. How I would have loved to race that car, even in the wet.

John
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Old 17th July 2012, 05:29 PM   #16
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

John,

I'm sure nobody thought you were being anything except enthusiastic. Certainly not dishonest in any way whatsoever.

Georg really shifts that car, so I'm sure your son will have been hugely impressed, and will have wonderful memories of seeing it flash round the circuit, and will have more similar memories if you are taking him with you to the event at the weekend.

Thanks for posting the photos, please post more after the races, and enjoy yourself while you are there!

All the best,


Ronnie Spain

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Old 18th July 2012, 11:09 AM   #17
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Re: Pictures of 1023 at historics in The Netherlands

@ John & Ronnie

This exact car has been discussed earlier coming to the same conclusion.
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