Fuel Pumps

[EGLITOM]

The Holley pumps are LOUD. I have one in my Cobra, the red pump, and it makes a lot of noise. Then again, it is RIGHT behind where I sit in the car. I would think two Facet pumps would make a lot less noise, but I agree with the above that one Facet pump would not keep up with a decent size Ford V8.

Too bad (the old lament) that they won't make the SW pumps again. Those kept up fine, didn't they....

Jim
We are not talking about the same pumps
The pumps you are talking about are a vane style rotor pumps, and of course they are loud.
Holley Performance Electric Pumps – Carbureted Products
The pump i´m talking about is the type 12-125 and 12-150 pump which is a gerotor style pump and is not noisy at all.

Mike. Chuck has mounted his 12-125 above the fueltank. In his build log you can find a video where he test te suction capability. worksjust fine. He has no issue with that pump beeing mounted above fuel level.

I have not yet mounted my 12-150 Holley pumps. My Aeromotive system works great
http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-build-logs/24525-toms-rcr-40-trackracer-21.html#post295830
The pump is this pump

Aeromotive*|*11213 - SS Fuel Pump - ORB-08

they used to have flowcharts on their website but i could not find it anymore. Anyhow i remember that this pump still flows >100 gph against 5 PSI.
As it is also a vane style pump it can be loud at some times, especially when run with a noreturn line style fuel system against a deadend regulator. Performance wise they support my >500 hp engine flawless.


Facet´s are pretty common and popular in UK, never understood why, imho they don´t belong in a car like hours with this fuel demand. THey may be good in some 4 banger lotus and ford escorts are cars like that, but as soon you face serious fuel demands they are just not up to the job.

I would always try to dimension teh volume rate of a fuel pump at least 20% higher than the max fuel demand of your engine

TOM

 

[Seymour Snerd]

The pump i´m talking about is the type 12-125 and 12-150 pump which is a gerotor style pump and is not noisy at all.

Facet´s are pretty common and popular in UK, never understood why, imho they don´t belong in a car like hours with this fuel demand. THey may be good in some 4 banger lotus and ford escorts are cars like that, but as soon you face serious fuel demands they are just not up to the job.

I would always try to dimension teh volume rate of a fuel pump at least 20% higher than the max fuel demand of your engine

Tom ---

OK, then maybe I won't do that, and instead get a couple of the holley gerotor pumps.

 

[Randy V]

Facet is the name of a company that has produced a number of different spec and design fuel pumps. I'm not so sure that they can all be placed in the same category in terms of their fitness for use in these cars. Certainly fuel delivery demands will vary with the power output of engines.

fuel pumps capable of lifting fuel up out of the sill tanks are important for car like ours. My recommendation is to use a Gerotor design pump. The Holley pumps used by Chuck in his car fit into that category. Positive displacement pumps will all work for this type of application. These are gerotor, piston and diaphragm design pumps. Vane design pumps typically won't last long in a lift orientation.

BTW, Facet builds Piston, Diaphragm and Gerotor pumps.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Facet is the name of a company that has produced a number of different spec and design fuel pumps. I'm not so sure that they can all be placed in the same category in terms of their fitness for use in these cars. Certainly fuel delivery demands will vary with the power output of engines.

fuel pumps capable of lifting fuel up out of the sill tanks are important for car like ours. My recommendation is to use a Gerotor design pump. The Holley pumps used by Chuck in his car fit into that category. Positive displacement pumps will all work for this type of application. These are gerotor, piston and diaphragm design pumps. Vane design pumps typically won't last long in a lift orientation.

BTW, Facet builds Piston, Diaphragm and Gerotor pumps.

Good point. I was talking about the "interruptor" pumps, which are diaphragm or piston-based, but browsing some more I see people also talking about the vibrating "solid state" pumps (roughly cube shaped) which are another matter entirely.







The last one is duralift which I assume is gerotor-based.

Tom: which exact Facet pump are you referring to?

 

[EGLITOM]

Dear Alan

not to a specific one. I have yet to find a FACET pump which flows more than 40gph against 5 PSI. And thats what i´m referring to. They are just not up to the job for our HP ratings. What is the sense of building multiple pump setups with parralel switched pumps. Just complicated, unsecure in result, more hoses, more complexity.

Just based on FAcet pumps flowrating i skipped this brand. in my opinion they are not even worth a further discussion. There are better , nicer, and even more costefficient solutions out there.

Randy, if you keep the Vane pumps primed, than they should last also in lift situations.
If you check out my installation, they can not run empty.

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-build-logs/24525-toms-rcr-40-trackracer-21.html#post295830

Agree the noise of them is annoying, that´s why i bought the Holley 12-150 pumps. (But also installation is not a priority , as long i have other things on the car to do)

TOM

 

[Randy V]

Your pumps are not installed as lift pumps Tom. Rather they are installed as siphon primed or siphon fed (depending on your terminology) as they should be. They will probably last a long time if you never run them dry. Running them dry just once may well necessitate their replacement.

Alan, yes the Duralift is a Gerotor design and one of the best pumps out there, however alone their flow rate would be insufficient for more than say 400 HP continuous duty.
The cube pumps are what Tom was describing earlier.

The cylindrical piston pumps - internally - are very much like the SW240a in design and execution. I believe there are three different pumps within that family. Gold, Red and Black Cap pumps. I forget which is the higher flow pump. It is this pump that I was speaking of earlier being installed in many cars like ours and they are very long lived.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

not to a specific one. I have yet to find a FACET pump which flows more than 40gph against 5 PSI.

Yes, that's true, although there is a duralift variant that goes to 50 gph. However,I'm in the position of requiring dual pumps for a different reason, namely, I decided to solve the "it runs out of gas going downhill" problem that was a point of discussion in SPF circles at the time I bought mine. So I have one pump feeding from left rear, and the other from right front, and joined together with check valves near the carburetor.

But I also need to worry about lift and dry-running because my left pump is mounted at about 1/2 of tank height, and my right pump is up on the firewall because the battery is down behind the right-side tank. So I think that to truly solve my problem I need a positive displacement pump, and the duralift is the only one I have seen that specifies a "dry run" time (4 hrs.). I suspect the interruptor pump would also survive a minute or two of dry run although I've never seen a spec. for that.

 

[tom pritchett]

I ran across this problem with my facet set up that was stock with the CAV. The car was on the dyno and went lean on wot. Nothing I could do to the stock set up would allow enough fuel to feed the 351 b&s to 383. I found the 12-125's and bought a set. One for each side. They are quiet and reliable. They also flow 125 gph which is plenty for the engine that I am running.

 

[tom pritchett]

Oh yeah, I gave one of my facet's to a buddy to run in his miata. Seems to work fine! I think that our engines need more than what a facet can produce.

 

[Jimmy P]

Not wanting to drift here but are you guys saying the Facet pumps are only good to a certain HP rating. What would that HP rating be before one should consider a different set up? I'm using "red top" Facets and truth be told they seem to be working well. I have @ 440 HP.

 

[Seymour Snerd]

..are you guys saying the Facet pumps are only good to a certain HP rating. What would that HP rating be before one should consider a different set up? I'm using "red top" Facets and truth be told they seem to be working well. I have @ 440 HP.

Well, all pumps are only good to a certain HP level determined by their maximum flow rates. In the case of 440HP if you use the .5 lb/hp-hour formula you get ~36 gph. However I don't know for sure which of the 16 12-v Facet Gold-Flo pumps is the "Red-Top" and so don't know for sure its maximum flow rate. If you can determine its part number (on the mounting tabs) you can look up the capacity on the chart. See Gold-Flo | Facet Purolator

 

[Ian Anderson]

Around 250 hp is where the red top should be used
Facet Red Top Fuel Pump - Competition 480532E

Now that is a UK site and from other discussions on here it would appear that UK horses are bigger than USA horses

Ian

 

[Charlie Farley]

Ian,

You mentioned horses.
How big are they in Romania ?
:lipsrsealed:

 

[Seymour Snerd]

Around 250 hp is where the red top should be used
Facet Red Top Fuel Pump - Competition 480532E

Now that is a UK site and from other discussions on here it would appear that UK horses are bigger than USA horses

Ian

Here's some more evidence Anglo-American equine-inequality:

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=8462

Regarding horse size, if US ones are smaller, Italian ones must be knee-high since my "350" horsepower Lamborghini used just one these pumps. But then I already knew from dyno runs that Lamborghinis used picolli cavalli calibrating their dynos. And of course here is your typical English horse:

 

[tom pritchett]

Like several on here, I didn't know that I didn't have enough flow until it was on the dyno and the car went lean.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Look at them feet. That is a BIG horse. Gotta tell Keith about that one....

 

[EGLITOM]

Well, all pumps are only good to a certain HP level determined by their maximum flow rates. In the case of 440HP if you use the .5 lb/hp-hour formula you get ~36 gph. However I don't know for sure which of the 16 12-v Facet Gold-Flo pumps is the "Red-Top" and so don't know for sure its maximum flow rate. If you can determine its part number (on the mounting tabs) you can look up the capacity on the chart. See Gold-Flo | Facet Purolator

OK thats the demand. As posted in my first post on this topic the fuel pump should be at least able to supply double that demand. So 75 gph should be the minimum. This gives enough reserve for all kind of real world suction and pressure conditions. Engines in the 500 - 600 HP range should at least run a 100 gph ( against the required pressure) pump.

Once again, no facet pump will be able to supply that !

TOM

 

[Frank Catt]

Agreed Tom, but its the whole delivery system, not just the pumps, flows should be carefully measured right through, and of course this also has to reflect whether you run a deadhead or return PFI, I always prefer a return system. Secondly, another item that has a very measurable effect on the system is tank breathing, most we see have completely inadequate breathers, and this of course affects the ability to free flow. Frank

 

[Keith]

Look at them feet. That is a BIG horse. Gotta tell Keith about that one....

Friggin' 'eck! That's a pub lunch for 600!

BTW it may be a Sussex Punch. Beautiful and tasty...

 

[Mike Pass]

Even though your setup may give a good flow rate when newly installed the filters can get clogged and if they do then you may get a full throttle lean condition which will melt pistons etc. In is good idea to place filters where they are easily accessed and to clean them out regularly and check flow rates. Much cheaper than a rebuild!
Cheers
Mike