Amen.
('Wish y'all could have seen the tribute to vets that Wayne Newton put on during his show in 'Vegas a couple years back. It was just...stunning.)
Veterans Day
- Thread starter molleur
- Start date
Amen.
('Wish y'all could have seen the tribute to vets that Wayne Newton put on during his show in 'Vegas a couple years back. It was just...stunning.)
Pat
Supporter
Jim, over the past three years, it is unprecedented for the number of four-star generals to be relieved of duty, and not necessarily relieved for cause. Many have simply retired.
So far in this administration, there have been 197 flag officers removed (some have it at over 200) and countless more given bad efficiency reports blocking any future chance of promotion. This number is unprecedented for the time frame involved. Most have been sacked with the reasons given as "loss of confidence" which is code for we just want you out or "allegations of inappropriate judgment" code for you did something we disagreed with. Some have specific "allegations of misconduct" from unnamed sources are tied to the press releases. That's certainly powerful and intimidating stuff and if the allegation proven false, the career is still ruined and the record in the media never corrected. I served three tours as an Inspector General and while I certainly was involved in many, many investigations the public release of "unnamed source" allegations of wrongdoing is, like the number of reliefs, unprecedented in my experience. In fact MOST of the allegations are never substantiated. In fiscal year 2011, when 125 senior officers and officials were investigated for misconduct only 18 cases were substantiated.
In reality, often the mistake made is of public criticism of the administration. For example, Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal was relieved in 2010 of his command of U.S. Forces in Afghanistan due to what has been described as unflattering remarks made off the record by an unnamed aide about Vice President Joe Biden and other administration officials in a Rolling Stone magazine article. The comment was allegedly made at McChrystal's 33rd wedding anniversary at a Paris bar. For the record, a Pentagon inquiry into the magazine's profile cleared McChrystal of wrongdoing and called into question the accuracy of the June 2010 story.
Army Gen. Carter Ham, who commanded U.S. African Command when the consulate was attacked and four Americans were killed, was highly critical of the decision by the State Department not to send in reinforcements.
Another flag officer involved in the Benghazi events was Rear Adm. Charles Gaouette. He commanded the Carrier Strike Group. He contends aircraft could have been sent to Libya in time to help the Americans under fire. A Navy official familiar with the circumstances of the investigation said it involved allegations of “inappropriate leadership judgment” and stressed it was not related to personal conduct. Later "unnamed sources" say he was removed from his post for alleged profanity, making derisive comments about a leader in the Navy and making “racially insensitive comments" -whatever that may mean.
Profanity???? You get fired for profanity???? (After the Benghazi scandal Hillary Clinton's aide, Philippe Reinestold, a reporter he "should “F**k Off” and “Have a good life.” Wonder what happened to him.) But I digress...
Army Major Gen. Ralph Baker was the commander of the Combined Joint Task Force Horn of Africa at Camp Lemonier in Djibouti, Africa. Baker contended that attack helicopters could have reached the consulate in time on the night of the attack. Relieved for "loss of confidence in his ability to command,”
Ironically, there seems to be a far gentler treatment of those in the administration responsible for the Fast and Furious, NSA, IRS targeting, AP reporter monitoring, and the unhappy rollout of the ACA website. While nine military officers have been relieved related to the Benghazi murders there have been no civilian dismissals related to the event.
It is clear that there is a striking alignment of those that had the temerity to disagree with the rules of engagement put in place in Afghanistan, the selection of the Pentagon Sequester cuts, the administrations posture on Iran, the repeal of don't ask, don't tell, and the softening of the physical standards of certain front line combat specialties and SCCs - "sudden career conclusions". The old "don't ask-don't tell had apparently been replaced by a new one with a very different meaning. The military should never tolerate personal or professional misconduct and certainly some of those relieved were done with sound justification. For them, good riddance. My concern is that if we get to the point that political correctness gets in the way of common sense and combat readiness suffers because of a lack of candor we are going the wrong way...
At last count, there were 919 active duty flag officers (Generals, Admirals etc.) in the U.S. military and 200 of them have been relieved that's over 20%.
If you were in the Pentagon wearing a star or two, what would you think?
For further reading, GOOGLE "kara hultgreen"
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Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Thanks Pat, I appreciate your knowlegable input.
I'm still a little confused, I don't see why Predident Obama would target those 200 flag officers and how he would go about relieving them, who would he give the list to?
Additionally, you said: "At last count, there were 919 active duty flag officers (Generals, Admirals etc.) in the U.S. military and 200 of them have been relieved that's over 20%."
Pat when you say they were "relieved" it makes it sound like all 200 were fired. Yet as you said, many of them retired and many were removed for cause.
Some of the examples you gave for Flag Officers being fired seems to be due to either disagreeing with their boss's orders or bad mouthing their boss.
Out here in the real world dissagreeing with your boss and bad mouthing your boss often leads to being "relieved".
Pat, the reason I am asking you this is that many folks were on the site are positive that the President personally fired these 200 officers.
Honestly, Pat, in your opinion, how many of those "relieved" flag officers were relieved at the direct Order of President Obama?
***************
Another question, why do we have so many flag officers. As I understand, since 9-11 we have added:
4 four star flag officers
23 three star
5 two star
12 one star
Thats 44 new Flag Officers just since 9-11.
We now have 919 Flag officers commending 1.4 million troops, that is essentially the same number we had in WWII when the same number of Flag Officers commanded over 12 million troops.
What's up with that?
I'm still a little confused, I don't see why Predident Obama would target those 200 flag officers and how he would go about relieving them, who would he give the list to?
Additionally, you said: "At last count, there were 919 active duty flag officers (Generals, Admirals etc.) in the U.S. military and 200 of them have been relieved that's over 20%."
Pat when you say they were "relieved" it makes it sound like all 200 were fired. Yet as you said, many of them retired and many were removed for cause.
Some of the examples you gave for Flag Officers being fired seems to be due to either disagreeing with their boss's orders or bad mouthing their boss.
Out here in the real world dissagreeing with your boss and bad mouthing your boss often leads to being "relieved".
Pat, the reason I am asking you this is that many folks were on the site are positive that the President personally fired these 200 officers.
Honestly, Pat, in your opinion, how many of those "relieved" flag officers were relieved at the direct Order of President Obama?
***************
Another question, why do we have so many flag officers. As I understand, since 9-11 we have added:
4 four star flag officers
23 three star
5 two star
12 one star
Thats 44 new Flag Officers just since 9-11.
We now have 919 Flag officers commending 1.4 million troops, that is essentially the same number we had in WWII when the same number of Flag Officers commanded over 12 million troops.
What's up with that?
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Pat
Supporter
Jim, President Obama is Commander-In-Chief and as such it is ultimately his responsibility and accountability for everything that happens or fails to happen in the military.
Federal Law sets the number of flag active officers. For example, there can only be (at most) 302 US Army generals in active duty at any given time. This is according to title 10, subtitle A, part 2, chapter 32, section 526 of the United States code.
In the twelve years since 9/11 there has been turnover just as in any job and those relieved (the 197-200) plus those retired will certainly be replaced if they haven't already.
As for who delivered the bad news, I would suspect that would be normally done by the chain of command (the boss of the individual relieved). Because of the sensitivity and impact, this is certainly done under the direction (or at least with the concurrence) of the White House staff. The President and the Senate (who would confirm the replacement) would be briefed in all cases and in other situations it would include the President's direct personal involvement. For example, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates fired General McChrystal’s predecessor, Gen. David D. McKiernan personally while the NY Times reported that Mr. Obama fired General McChrystal himself.
So did Mr. Obama personally fire 200 flag officers? -of course not. Was he involved to some degree, certainly - he's in charge and I would suspect his specific involvement would be case by case.
Federal Law sets the number of flag active officers. For example, there can only be (at most) 302 US Army generals in active duty at any given time. This is according to title 10, subtitle A, part 2, chapter 32, section 526 of the United States code.
In the twelve years since 9/11 there has been turnover just as in any job and those relieved (the 197-200) plus those retired will certainly be replaced if they haven't already.
As for who delivered the bad news, I would suspect that would be normally done by the chain of command (the boss of the individual relieved). Because of the sensitivity and impact, this is certainly done under the direction (or at least with the concurrence) of the White House staff. The President and the Senate (who would confirm the replacement) would be briefed in all cases and in other situations it would include the President's direct personal involvement. For example, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates fired General McChrystal’s predecessor, Gen. David D. McKiernan personally while the NY Times reported that Mr. Obama fired General McChrystal himself.
So did Mr. Obama personally fire 200 flag officers? -of course not. Was he involved to some degree, certainly - he's in charge and I would suspect his specific involvement would be case by case.
Jim Craik
Lifetime Supporter
Thanks Pat, thats kind of what I thought.
Yes the buck stops with President Obama, thats how it always has been.
So now we have President Obama personally firing one, General S McChrystal.
I found this artical from Fox news:
President Obama said Wednesday he feels no "personal insult" from Gen. Stanley McChrystal but accepted his resignation as the commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan because he couldn't abide scathing comments by McChrystal and his aides that appeared in an article out this week in Rolling Stone magazine.
"The conduct represented in the recently published article does not meet the standard that should be set by a commanding general. It undermines the civilian control of the military that is at the core of our democratic system. And it erodes the trust that's necessary for our team to work together to achieve our objectives in Afghanistan," Obama said.
"War is bigger than any one man or woman, whether a private, a general or a president," he said.
According to administration officials, McChrystal offered his resignation immediately during a face-to-face meeting with Obama Wednesday morning in the Oval Office and the president accepted it without hesitation, though "regretfully and sorrowfully."
**********
Pat as you know, once those comments appeard in print, McChrystal was done....
Additionally, I'm sure that had he not resigned General McChrystal would have been replaced, but according to Fox, Gen McChrystal resigned.
So up to this point, except for being the Commander in Chief, there is no evidence that President Obama was personaly involved in firing 200 Flag Officers, in fact we don't have him personaly firing anyone.
I'm glad we could set the record straight
Pat, I'll see you in January!
Yes the buck stops with President Obama, thats how it always has been.
So now we have President Obama personally firing one, General S McChrystal.
I found this artical from Fox news:
President Obama said Wednesday he feels no "personal insult" from Gen. Stanley McChrystal but accepted his resignation as the commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan because he couldn't abide scathing comments by McChrystal and his aides that appeared in an article out this week in Rolling Stone magazine.
"The conduct represented in the recently published article does not meet the standard that should be set by a commanding general. It undermines the civilian control of the military that is at the core of our democratic system. And it erodes the trust that's necessary for our team to work together to achieve our objectives in Afghanistan," Obama said.
"War is bigger than any one man or woman, whether a private, a general or a president," he said.
According to administration officials, McChrystal offered his resignation immediately during a face-to-face meeting with Obama Wednesday morning in the Oval Office and the president accepted it without hesitation, though "regretfully and sorrowfully."
**********
Pat as you know, once those comments appeard in print, McChrystal was done....
Additionally, I'm sure that had he not resigned General McChrystal would have been replaced, but according to Fox, Gen McChrystal resigned.
So up to this point, except for being the Commander in Chief, there is no evidence that President Obama was personaly involved in firing 200 Flag Officers, in fact we don't have him personaly firing anyone.
I'm glad we could set the record straight
Pat, I'll see you in January!
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Ditto Saratoga.
I wish to apologise to all Veterans everywhere for my unwitting and pretty immature thread drifting, thus helping to set it up for a typical and tiresome ambush.
To try and set the record straight I'll post this, and hope it finds people that have not seen it before. It is a heart warming story demonstrating gut wrenching courage by young American WWII fliers, in an astonishing display of nonchalance in the face of almost certain death. Let this thread be remembered for these sentiments alone.
Although the tail actually bounced and swayed in the wind and twisted when the plane turned and all the control cables were severed, except one single elevator cable still worked, and the aircraft still flew - miraculously! The tail gunner was trapped because there was no floor connecting the tail to the rest of the plane. The waist and tail gunners used parts of the German fighter and their own parachute harnesses in an attempt to keep the tail from ripping off and the two sides of the fuselage from splitting apart. While the crew was trying to keep the bomber from coming apart, the pilot continued on his bomb run and released his bombs over the target.
When the bomb bay doors were opened, the wind turbulence was so great that it blew one of the waist gunners into the broken tail section. It took several minutes and four crew members to pass him ropes from parachutes and haul him back into the forward part of the plane. When they tried to do the same for the tail gunner, the tail began flapping so hard that it began to break off. The weight of the gunner was adding some stability to the tail section, so he went back to his position.
The turn back toward England had to be very slow to keep the tail from twisting off. They actually covered almost 70 miles to make the turn home. The bomber was so badly damaged that it was losing altitude and speed and was soon alone in the sky. For a brief time, two more Me-109 German fighters attacked the All American. Despite the extensive damage, all of the machine gunners were able to respond to these attacks and soon drove off the fighters. The two waist gunners stood up with their heads sticking out through the hole in the top of the fuselage to aim and fire their machine guns. The tail gunner had to shoot in short bursts because the recoil was actually causing the plane to turn.
Allied P-51 fighters intercepted the All American as it crossed over the Channel and took one of the pictures shown. They also radioed to the base describing that the empennage was waving like a fish tail and that the plane would not make it and to send out boats to rescue the crew when they bailed out. The fighters stayed with the Fortress taking hand signals from Lt. Bragg and relaying them to the base. Lt. Bragg signaled that 5 parachutes and the spare had been "used" so five of the crew could not bail out. He made the decision that if they could not bail out safely, then he would stay with the plane and land it.
Two and a half hours after being hit, the aircraft made its final turn to line up with the runway while it was still over 40 miles away. It descended into an emergency landing and a normal roll-out on its landing gear.
When the ambulance pulled alongside, it was waved off because not a single member of the crew had been injured. No one could believe that the aircraft could still fly in such a condition. The Fortress sat placidly until the crew all exited through the door in the fuselage and the tail gunner had climbed down a ladder, at which time the entire rear section of the aircraft collapsed onto the ground. The rugged old bird had done its job.
Lest we Forget....
To try and set the record straight I'll post this, and hope it finds people that have not seen it before. It is a heart warming story demonstrating gut wrenching courage by young American WWII fliers, in an astonishing display of nonchalance in the face of almost certain death. Let this thread be remembered for these sentiments alone.
Navigator - Harry C. Nuessle
Bombardier - Ralph Burbridge
Engineer - Joe C. James
Radio Operator - Paul A. Galloway
Ball Turret Gunner - Elton Conda
Waist Gunner - Michael Zuk
Tail Gunner - Sam T. Sarpolus
Ground Crew Chief - Hank Hyland
A mid-air collision on February 1, 1943, between a B-17 and a German fighter over the Tunis dock area, became the subject of one of the most famous photographs of World War II. An enemy fighter attacking a 97th Bomb Group formation went out of control, probably with a wounded pilot then continued its crashing descent into the rear of the fuselage of a Fortress named "All American", piloted by Lt. Kendrick R. Bragg, of the 414th Bomb Squadron. When it struck, the fighter broke apart, but left some pieces in the B-17. The left horizontal stabilizer of the Fortress and left elevator were completely torn away. The two right engines were out and one on the left had a serious oil pump leak. The vertical fin and the rudder had been damaged, the fuselage had been cut almost completely through connected only at two small parts of the frame and the radios, electrical and oxygen systems were damaged. There was also a hole in the top that was over 16 feet long and 4 feet wide at its widest and the split in the fuselage went all the way to the top gunners turret.
Bombardier - Ralph Burbridge
Engineer - Joe C. James
Radio Operator - Paul A. Galloway
Ball Turret Gunner - Elton Conda
Waist Gunner - Michael Zuk
Tail Gunner - Sam T. Sarpolus
Ground Crew Chief - Hank Hyland
B-17 in 1943
A mid-air collision on February 1, 1943, between a B-17 and a German fighter over the Tunis dock area, became the subject of one of the most famous photographs of World War II. An enemy fighter attacking a 97th Bomb Group formation went out of control, probably with a wounded pilot then continued its crashing descent into the rear of the fuselage of a Fortress named "All American", piloted by Lt. Kendrick R. Bragg, of the 414th Bomb Squadron. When it struck, the fighter broke apart, but left some pieces in the B-17. The left horizontal stabilizer of the Fortress and left elevator were completely torn away. The two right engines were out and one on the left had a serious oil pump leak. The vertical fin and the rudder had been damaged, the fuselage had been cut almost completely through connected only at two small parts of the frame and the radios, electrical and oxygen systems were damaged. There was also a hole in the top that was over 16 feet long and 4 feet wide at its widest and the split in the fuselage went all the way to the top gunners turret.
When the bomb bay doors were opened, the wind turbulence was so great that it blew one of the waist gunners into the broken tail section. It took several minutes and four crew members to pass him ropes from parachutes and haul him back into the forward part of the plane. When they tried to do the same for the tail gunner, the tail began flapping so hard that it began to break off. The weight of the gunner was adding some stability to the tail section, so he went back to his position.
The turn back toward England had to be very slow to keep the tail from twisting off. They actually covered almost 70 miles to make the turn home. The bomber was so badly damaged that it was losing altitude and speed and was soon alone in the sky. For a brief time, two more Me-109 German fighters attacked the All American. Despite the extensive damage, all of the machine gunners were able to respond to these attacks and soon drove off the fighters. The two waist gunners stood up with their heads sticking out through the hole in the top of the fuselage to aim and fire their machine guns. The tail gunner had to shoot in short bursts because the recoil was actually causing the plane to turn.
Allied P-51 fighters intercepted the All American as it crossed over the Channel and took one of the pictures shown. They also radioed to the base describing that the empennage was waving like a fish tail and that the plane would not make it and to send out boats to rescue the crew when they bailed out. The fighters stayed with the Fortress taking hand signals from Lt. Bragg and relaying them to the base. Lt. Bragg signaled that 5 parachutes and the spare had been "used" so five of the crew could not bail out. He made the decision that if they could not bail out safely, then he would stay with the plane and land it.
Two and a half hours after being hit, the aircraft made its final turn to line up with the runway while it was still over 40 miles away. It descended into an emergency landing and a normal roll-out on its landing gear.
When the ambulance pulled alongside, it was waved off because not a single member of the crew had been injured. No one could believe that the aircraft could still fly in such a condition. The Fortress sat placidly until the crew all exited through the door in the fuselage and the tail gunner had climbed down a ladder, at which time the entire rear section of the aircraft collapsed onto the ground. The rugged old bird had done its job.
Lest we Forget....
Pat
Supporter
Thanks Pat, thats kind of what I thought.
Yes the buck stops with President Obama, thats how it always has been.
So now we have President Obama personally firing one, General S McChrystal.
Additionally, I'm sure that had he not resigned General McChrystal would have been replaced, but according to Fox, Gen McChrystal resigned.
So up to this point, except for being the Commander in Chief, there is no evidence that President Obama was personaly involved in firing 200 Flag Officers, in fact we don't have him personaly firing anyone.
I'm glad we could set the record straight
Pat, I'll see you in January!
Keith, thank you for your kind reminder. You are certainly free to disregard my post, block my post or do any number of other things with my post.
And Jim, let's agree to disagree on this one. Because President Obama didn't personally deliver the message, that doesn't mean he didn't direct the relief. The gossip (among several retired flag officers) is that his staff, specifically Ms Jarrett had pushed for many of the action and routed the relief through the president's position as Commander-In-Chief. Much like Mr. Obama taking credit for killing Bin Laden, he certainly didn't pull the trigger but he authorized the action. In my book he also gets the credit for that as he does the 200 dismissals.
Looking forward to seeing you at Daytona!
"The Fortress sat placidly until the crew all exited through the door in the fuselage and the tail gunner had climbed down a ladder, AT WHICH TIME the entire rear section of the aircraft COLLAPSED ONTO THE GROUND."
'Care to hazard a guess as to Who arranged the timing on that?
'Never heard about this particular incident 'til now. 'Have read/seen pics of quite similar ones though. 'All are 'goose bump' creators. 'Truly astonishing all the way around.
Thanks for posting, Keith.
'Care to hazard a guess as to Who arranged the timing on that?
'Never heard about this particular incident 'til now. 'Have read/seen pics of quite similar ones though. 'All are 'goose bump' creators. 'Truly astonishing all the way around.
Thanks for posting, Keith.
Pat
Supporter
Thanks for the follow up Keith and your post did give me a thought. I'm in a hotel room at the moment on an assignment and so a bit reflective.
While we were talking about vets, I really did have a massive omission. We need to thank not only all the vets but all the families who have suffered the loneliness, anxiety and in too many cases the loss. My son is in his mid 30s and he recently confided just how painful all the years I was away caused him. But I always came back but so many didn't and others came back broken and their loved ones will be helping them heal for the rest of their lives. God bless them all.
So this is for the families and for me very difficult to watch.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSMlIM9zLio]Soldier homecoming surprise mix - YouTube[/ame]
While we were talking about vets, I really did have a massive omission. We need to thank not only all the vets but all the families who have suffered the loneliness, anxiety and in too many cases the loss. My son is in his mid 30s and he recently confided just how painful all the years I was away caused him. But I always came back but so many didn't and others came back broken and their loved ones will be helping them heal for the rest of their lives. God bless them all.
So this is for the families and for me very difficult to watch.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSMlIM9zLio]Soldier homecoming surprise mix - YouTube[/ame]
