RIP Nelson Mandela

[Keith]

Gentlemen, I agree with many of your comments on both sides of the fence, but there is an unpalatable truth in this world, and that is you CAN bomb your way to the conference table. It's a proven and workable tactic.

However, on balance, I would personally like to remember Mandela as a Force for Good. He can hardly be blamed for millions of people climbing on to and off from his bandwagon as it suited them, or for the behaviour of his 'family.'

Men like Mandela are men of their times and are chosen by the people - sometimes they do not ask for greatness and it is thrust upon them. It's what you do with such a gift, and generally, I would say that Mandela handled his Gift well.

Apartheid is ugly, was ugly and will always be ugly whatever name you give it. State sponsored repression and violence against it's citizens is the main reason that we in the so-called enlightened West go to war on behalf of the oppressed. We can hardly blame Mandela for doing the same.

So, please let the conversation continue but let's not go down a divisive and dangerous road.

Thanks.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Jim, thank you.
Pete - ever contemplate how you would feel as a black under apartheid? Maybe you need to.

Dave- ever contemplate what it would be like to be beaten tied up and a tire filled with petrol put around your neck and set alight while you were still alive?
Maybe you need to.

 

[Larry L.]

The South African democracy owes its existence to Mandela- and others- but to him more than any other single person.

...and that, boiled down to the basics, above all others, is THEE singular thing that need be known/remembered about the man IMHO.

 

[Keith]

Dave- ever contemplate what it would be like to be beaten tied up and a tire filled with petrol put around your neck and set alight while you were still alive?
Maybe you need to.

One thing above all else to me, is completely unimaginable - Man's continuing inhumanity to his Fellow Man.


It defies any logic and is Primeval at best.

 

Agreed Keith.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

True enough Keith.

 

[DaveM]

Pete,
The history lesson is a comparison of Mandela and Mugabe. Both were imprisoned for 'terrorist' activities and served long sentences. Mandela gave up his vindictive past and brought South Africa thru a relatively peaceful transition to black freedom and democracy. Mugabe continued his vindictive past and destroyed Rhodesia (Zimbabwe). Apparently you can't acknowledge that Mandela did any good for South Africa or is an example of forgiveness.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Dave, on the contrary I am happy to acknowledge that Mandella did a lot of good in helping to overthrow apartheid . However I object to a convicted terrorist being turned into a Saint, which Mandella certainly was not. Some may call it balance.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

My point was that he did not seek sainthood, and if you read his autobiography he acknowledged his shortcomings readily. And our modern world has many former terrorists who, if not saints, are reformed terrorists and effective political actors. Again, this is the problem with being dead- if you were a person of influence, your image and legacy are hijacked by those to whom conferring sainthood upon you gives them political advantage. Mandela had and has no control over the sort of foolish knee-jerk worship that seeks to reduce a complex and fascinating life to a set of foolishly simple parables.

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

Jim I could not agree more, and just watch the hypocrites of the world jump on the band wagon. Be it polititions or the media.
My point was he is being made a Saint, almost Deified by those who seek advantage and he was not a saint by any measure.

 

[Keith]

Just after they have metaphorically hurled themselves on his coffin...

 

[Mark]

One thing good may come of this.

Suppose that all the world's 'leaders' and fake-faced media whores, (I mean 'hero's) etc, all gathered around Mr. Mandela's coffin for the world's largest funeral, just as 'the' climate change decided to hurl a giant Typhoon and Tsunami, with a Hail storm of biblical proportion thrown in for good measure, right on the heads of the self-congratulated congregation.

Well I can hope........

 

[Robert May Eng.]

As soon as the funeral proceeding`s are over the dyslexic Mandella supporters should be made to clear up all the wreaths they have left outside the Nissan Main dealers. On a serious note who is going to fill his boots and keep some sort of normality in SA ?

Bob

 

[Keith]

I would have thought that fairly obvious: the inaccurately acronymed B.O.S.S. :shifty:

 

[Robert May Eng.]

I would have thought that fairly obvious: the inaccurately acronymed B.O.S.S. :shifty:

Back to oppression then? What I meant was the populace showed an affinity towards Mandela and it was that alone that kept a lid on tensions in SA , who will fill his boots?

Bob

 

[Pete McCluskey.]

That is a bloody good question Bob. Let us hope it doesn't go the way of other African countries.

 

[Ian Anderson]

Very true Pete
I sure am thankful that Mr Mandela had the South African nuclear program dismantled

He said once he would never push the button and wanted to make sure whoever followed would not be able to do so


Would Zuma (for example) have Mandela's restraint?
Ian

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Yes, or that fucking idiot Thabo Mbeki? What a brainless moron. Pardon my spleen. This is the shithead who said that AIDS was a Western conspiracy or some such rot. Clearly someone who should not be in charge of a hot dog stand, let alone a nuclear power.

"Right, Mr. President Mbeki- we've got good news and bad news, sir. The good news is that we found out that AIDS is indeed a Western conspiracy. The bad news, sir, is that we found out your complete lack of intelligence is an African conspiracy. Your parents conspired to have you and this is the result. Terribly sorry, Mr. President."

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

Mark's comment brings to mind a story you all may find amusing. Many years ago (1994) I was part of a medical mission to Gaza to perform plastic surgery, mostly on children with facial defects and burn wounds, that sort of thing. The leader of the mission, and of the foundation that did these trips, William Magee, is a plastic surgeon and a very idealistic sort of fellow. And, as you can imagine, there was a lot of political speech thrown about by everyone. Anyway, one day we're all making round on the wards, seeing the patients that had already had surgery, and I'm standing in the back of the group with Bob Rubin, another team member, who was an anesthesiologist from (I think) UCLA. And Magee is up front spouting off about how if all the people from Hamas and Arafat's party and the Israelis could all just stop fighting long enough to come to the hospital and walk on round with us, they would just give up their guns and their bombs and their rocks and agree to work together for everyone's benefit. Etc etc.

And Bob Rubin turned to me, with this completely serious look on his face, totally deadpan, and said "what do you think of that idea, Jim?"

And I said, "I'll tell you what I think of that idea. I think if all those people are known to be in one place at one time, some crazy fucker is going to hit the hospital with a fucking missile, and I have no intention of being anywhere NEAR here when it hits. Someplace out there are a lot of people who could not resist that temptation, and I don't want them to knock me off along with everyone else."

And Rubin said, "you know, that's kind of what I think, too....."

 

[Robert May Eng.]

I see the new PM selection process is underway, god help SA.

Bob